Porn

[garlicbum]

Giving this another punt, since we seem to be doing civilised controversy quite well atm :)

I used to be fairly cool about porn, though never much of a fan. Now I feel:-
? Too much bullying & exploitation is used in its making
? It promotes too many rape-like fantasies
? Sexual objectification spills over into real life
? Porn gives boys and girls weird expectations of sexual relationships.
I'm sure there's more; just typing off the top of my head.

However, I am persuaded that sexual representation in the arts is not always porn. I've seen it said the Victorians invented porn - and think I agree. It was the Victorians who simultaneously labelled sexuality "dirty" and went looking for it in secret. Women and men have always enjoyed sexy art; it wasn't porn because it wasn't considered shameful.

I believe there is still a healthy stream of sexy art, but have a hard time separating it from porn. I've no idea how one would remove the Victorians' legacy of smuttiness from our appreciation of human sexuality. Dammit.

As a feminist, what do you feel about porn? How have your ideas on it changed?

Hi anyfucker, you gave me some invaluable help and advice about porn use in relationships a few months back, I don't know if I thanked you at the time but your words really helped me stand up for myself and say actually no, I will not stand for this, when everyone else was telling me not to be a prude.
Thank you.

I can't idly watch any kind of exploitation, that includes JK, porn, X Factor, etc, etc.

It makes me angry and uncomfortable.

It makes me question myself, my motives for being a voyeur, etc. and the honest answer is invariably selfish. I do not want to be that person.

That is the main reason I hardly ever watch TV.

That is awful itsthequietones.

I think porn is really damaging young people's sexuality. It is normalising acts that only 20 years ago would have been seen as extreme or at least kinky by most people. It means teenage girls and young women get coerced into sex acts that they won't enjoy or may be painful or degrading. It means young girls and women change their bodies to conform to the warped ideals promoted in porn e.g. shaving, genital surgery, etc.

A lot of older people I think ignore or are unaware of how much impact porn is having on young people.

And I do think porn has a negative impact on all relationships where one or both partners use it.

And I haven't even started on the abuse, coercion, trafficking, etc of woman who are actually involved in making porn. The idea that you would want to get yourself off from potentially watching a woman being raped or abused!

So I guess it is clear that I am anti porn. I actually don't even agree or like graphic simulated sex scenes on tv/films. Too often they are gratutious and are clearly just there as "soft porn".

Good for you, riding

I think the word prude is a klaxon. It always means a woman is being persuaded to accept something that she is within her rights not to accept.

I find that when people call me a prude, it simply confirms their stupidity and ignorance.

Only one person has ever called me a prude. He wished he had not, about 5 minutes into my angry lecture.....

We need to reclaim the P word, don't we?

Katie

There have been various threads on here about the nature of porn, certain issues to do with prostitution and trafficking, wider impact of porn culture on people who are not watching porn etc. And I'm not dismissing those issues, but I think there is another issue here of cruelty and suffering and our viewing of it.

The poster saying they do voluntary work, are a good parent etc. I don't want to single you out personally; it is just that I think there is an issue you highlight which I am applying to all of us including myself - where we will have external behaviours of often doing the right thing. I'm sure most of us are good parents, helpful to our neighbours and so on. Yet that isn't a way of seeing where the cracks are - when a news story comes on where somebody has done something really terrible, often friends and neighbours are utterly shocked because they never suspected anything. And I think that happens in a wider context of a disconnect between external behaviour and inner feelings which are being articulated, shared and legitimised in various parts of the media. And it almost becomes a cliche - that we considers ourselves upstanding (it used to be we considered ourselves pious and devout) while leaking this inner focus on cruelty and suffering to each other. It is as if the idea of who we are externally stops us looking at what is actually going on in our heads. And what is going on in our heads can suddenly emerge collectively in times of crisis, particularly against groups we 'other.'

Now, I'm sure the reason why we are engaging with cruelty and suffering as a form of entertainment is complex - for some people there is an identification with a victim because they themselves feel victimised. But it seems to me that a lot of crime victim focuses on the perpetrator - inside the mind of a killer and so on. There seems to be a difference between older horror films where the focus was on the victims attempts to run, flee, escape and modern ones with a focus on torture and the intelligence/creativity of the killer.

And I don't know what is going on there - I don't know what violent porn, glorifying of crime, misery memoirs, torture films, public humiliation on tv shows is collectively doing to us.

I do think that the increased cruelty (whether faked or genuine abuse) in porn is a reflection of an increasingly cruel and divisive culture I agree with SGB on this point, it's the overall culture in which porn is being made and viewed that has shifted. I have an inkling that in today's cruel culture pornography without coercion and exploitation isn't what most young people are consuming.

The difference between erotica and pornography for me is something to do with the reason behind it's creation, the thought processes which brought it into being, what is being conveyed and whether something is slightly disturbing. It is no accidental observation that men who watch porn over time go in search of more disturbing and exploitative pornography. Is it the exploitation they seek or is it because the subconscious needs that level of contradiction where something is a turn on but equally so disturbing. Like a person frightened of the sight blood who regularly watches horror films.

I studied Critical studies to A'level (never did me any good) and my project was on Lucian Freud. Is Freuds work pornography? www.google.co.uk/search?q=lucian+freud+paintings&hl=en&sa=X&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=BanlT6CFFM2o8QOj2cCdCg&ved=0CIwBELAE&biw=1138&bih=564 If so which paintings are pornographic and which ones are erotica?

I think there is a coarsening effect to the degree that what was once thought unacceptable people now shrug about. For example, the TV news of years ago would not have shown violent scenes especially in its early evening bulletins. Now it routinely shows them (albeit with a warning about some people finding it distressing). But do we all? Or do we simply say "how awful" and watch the next programme. Same with porn: what would have shocked 20 years ago stops being shocking 10 years later and what shocks us 10 years ago is no longer shocking - because it has as coarsening effect. It becomes banal because it is everywhere.

Disclaimer: I am using the collective we here - not saying it has the same effect on everyone.

Personally, if I am called a prude or even repressed because I object to porn I don't care. I would rather be a prude and thought repressed than be a voyeur who has lost the ability to empathise with other human beings.

We need to reclaim the P word, don't we?

We certainly do. I found this:

prude (prd)
n.
One who is excessively concerned with being or appearing to be proper, modest, or righteous.

[French, short for prude femme, virtuous woman : Old French prude, feminine of prud, virtuous; see proud + French femme, woman (from Latin fmina; see feminine).]

Word History: Being called a prude is rarely considered a compliment, but if we dig into the history of the word prude, we find that it has a noble past. The change for the worse took place in French. French prude first had a good sense, "wise woman," but apparently a woman could be too wise or, in the eyes of some, too observant of decorum and propriety. Thus prude took on the sense in French that was brought into English along with the word, first recorded in 1704. The French word prude was a shortened form of prude femme (earlier in Old French prode femme), a word modeled on earlier preudomme, "a man of experience and integrity." The second part of this word is, of course, homme, "man." Old French prod, meaning "wise, prudent," is from Vulgar Latin prdis with the same sense. Prdis in turn comes from Late Latin prde, "advantageous," derived from the verb prdesse, "to be good." Despite this history filled with usefulness, profit, wisdom, and integrity, prude has become a term of reproach.

My objections to porn are pretty common -- I've done quite a bit of research in sex trafficking and it's horrific effects, and I'm also really dismayed by the impact of porn on young people.

One thing I wish would get highlighted, to counter the 'consensual' argument used for professional porn participants, is that a lot of the porn on the popular sites is not by professionals but often includes young, clearly intoxicated women having sex, sometimes with multiple men, sometimes in the middle of a party. The explosion of smartphones and easy to use porn websites means that a lot of people are starring in porn unwillingly. Sure, maybe young people have been making sexual mistakes for ages, but today those mistakes are being put online and watched by millions.

dreaming - I agree. I have come across multiple situations through my work where young girls - and they can be as young as 13 - have been coerced/persuaded into filmed sexual activity that is then out on the net. And I have also come across teenage girls who think there is nothing wrong with this because "everybody is doing it" - and sadly a lot of teenagers are.

Often girls not making it to be put on the net, but agreeing to be filmed by a boyfrirend who at a later stage shares it with others and then gets put on the net.

Eats, exactly. You can tell sometimes the women have no idea they are being filmed as well. And really, often the young women are so drunk that even if they seem willing it's really their rape that people are watching

NB: obviously I watched this for research purposes, not enjoyment!

I think it's very telling that those who are most vocally against porn know about what's in it - I know before I was really aware of what most porn is like I was absolutely okay with it - some people filmed having sex/watching people consensually having sex, what's wrong with that?

It's the objectification and the literal way that women are treated like objects or pieces of meat that bothers me, really bothers me. I don't see how anybody can acquaint that with sex at all and it upsets and actually frightens me that people (so many people, apparently) find this a turn on. And of course the fact that a lot of it isn't consensual despite claiming to be.

I don't really understand why porn which is overtly abusive isn't illegal.

I don't have a problem with porn per se but a lot of mainstream porn seems to focus solely on male pleasure and the thought that some or all of the participants may taking part against their will is sickening.

There are people out there making feminist porn and this is a welcome step. I don't think there's anything wrong with watching erotic images made willingly by other people. It can be pleasurable and why should women be denied such a pleasure?

Regarding the argument that porn destroys relationships, I would think that one or both partners retreating into a world of porn is a symptom of deeper problems within the relationship.

or more likely, Frances, a problem within the individual not the relationship

there have been many, many threads on the relationships board made my women living with men who have a real problem with porn, to the detriment of their emotional/sexual connection with their partner

I wouldn't lay any mutual blame there...the problem is solely with the person who values porn over a respectful relationship

and, sadly, all those women have blamed themselves

Dreaming - I am really glad there are women like you doing research to expose what porn really means. I honestly think a lot of women have no idea - unless they are very pro porn! But I admit, I couldn't have done it. It must have broke your heart to watch that happening.

I think all porn use harms relationships - the harm may be small, but it is there. All porn distorts people's ideas of what sex should consist of and of what a woman's body "should" look like.

It's the objectification and the literal way that women are treated like objects or pieces of meat that bothers me - That's the nub of it, I think, Bertie. I feel, too, it's the underlying difference between erotica and porn.

In erotic art (whether it was intentionally erotic or not) there is deliberate inclusion of the subject's character, the artist's, and by extension the viewer's (or reader's or listener's). Sex most definitely is about body parts but it also involves feelings and mutual consideration. Sex that isn't mutually considerate is, essentially, rape.

My thoughts are getting pretty convoluted at this stage: in itsthequietones's story, the viewer clearly enjoyed the woman's suffering :( I'm sure there are people who get kicks out of Old Masters featuring rape but, as I assume the models weren't suffering for real, I enjoy the paintings. This is everything to do with objectification but I can't put my finger on it.

Discussion above, about our 'dark side' enjoyment of exploitative TV, books and films feels highly relevant and, again, I find myself unable to define it. I loved Abi Grant's near-rape recovery memoir because it enlightened me and I was rooting for her to get justice without caving in to well-meant pressure to drop it. I sometimes watch Kyle; I am fascinated by people of all varieties. Yet I slammed a well-written detective novel due to its focus on cruelty: it felt pornographic to me, mainly because the violent acts were more detailed than the victims' substance. I gave my copy to my brother, who loved it.

Teenagers, afaik, tend to sexually objectify themselves - I believe it's a useful stage in assimilating this whole new part of one's being. But, in getting to know their own sexual existence, young people naturally seek feedback & input. When the inputs tell them that men "do sex to" women - and that only a given model of woman is valid - it's bound to skew natural development, surely? The only damaging message my generation got from this process was that women should be thin. Now they have to be not only thin, but with disproportionately large breasts and bums, no pubes and small labia, and to take the role of "fucked" rather than participant. I am 100% sure porn is responsible for this.

Wow, loads more good posts! I need to go out and clean my brain but am looking forward to reading on.