Quite shocked and disappointed by my friends' reactions. Am I being unfair?

[EduStudent]

I found out this evening that an acquaintance's boyfriend got physically abusive with her the other night. From what I understand, he pushed her over, then trashed all her belongings that were at his place, e.g. smashing perfume, ruining make-up etc.

I was told this by mutual friends, who were saying what an absolute cunt the boyfriend is. However, they then said that the ruining the make-up was the worst part and implied that the fact he hadn't offered to pay to replace it was worse than his lack of apology for physically hurting her .

They're also supposed to be going to Australia next week for a long holiday/short travelling and my various friends all basically said that she couldn't split up with him because it was booked and they'd lose out.

I don't entirely know why I'm posting this, other than I'm completely horrified that my friends seemed to think the make-up was worse than the physical stuff and that a holiday meant you had to stay together. I said that for me that would be an absolute dealbreaker and that it was a hateful thing to do.

It's the first time I've encountered violence in a relationship at such close proximity and just found my friends' reactions completely shocking. Is there anything you can do to change views like this? These are all young people at university, I guess I just thought that these views were old-fashioned and dying out, but apparently alive and kicking

is that addressed at me pubes?

Yes, but it's a good suggestion for anybody who genuinely wants to help.

do i remember, on another thread, the womens aid link suggestion first being thought about for mysogenists who come up with rape myths?

i tried to send the 3 quid from the phone text, but it doesnt work from holland, or at least i dont think it did, i retried 3 times so maybe when i get my bill i'll be 9 quid shorter. anyway then my OH walked in and i stopped, and was too embarressed to explain what i was doing.

Well, I thought Rape Crisis for rape myths and Women's Aid for DV myths would be appropriate but yes, you remember right. If text giving isn't working from Holland you can donate online using paypal or a debit/credit card.

Why would you be embarrassed to be caught donating to a worthy charity?

good question, still trying to work that out myself.

It's taken some time to decide to post this - and I didn't read the whole argument.

As a serial abuse target, it has been extremely important for me to recognise how & why I've attracted abusers and kept them in my life. I need to know this before I can figure out how to change. First up, I had to recognise abuse for what it is (not my just desserts, to summarise), then study the mechanics of it and look at the dynamics of relationships between targets and their abusers.

I cannot overstate the importance of this to me - and to the hundreds of fellow 'recoverers' I encounter on my journey. It's life and death. Literally.

Ultimately, I can blame patriarchy for what happened to me. But the politics, per se, don't help me improve MY chances of not surrounding myself with abusers, nor of helping others to improve theirs. I can only do this with psychology, self-knowledge and altered social strategies.

Because of my own (painful and ongoing) experience, and my sharing in others' similar experiences, I consider it vastly irresponsible to dismiss the core of abuse recovery as victim blaming. I don't blame myself, but all the same I recognise I need to change myself in order to be safer & happier.

It's also a tragically missed opportunity to compare the mechanics of abusive interpersonal relationships with those of oppressive political/social systems. I see quite dramatic parallels, alongside some intriguing differences. I can't, however, discuss these in terms of bad guy vs good woman: that would be childish and unhelpful. If I'm not "allowed" to consider the target's role in her own oppression, for fear of victim-blaming, then how may I discuss the dynamics of abuse?

Garlic, I'm so sorry if my words hurt you.

Of course women who are stuck in a pattern of serial abusive relationships must be allowed to name their experience and work out why it keeps happening so they can recover.

The problem is when people like bobbledunk assert that all women who are abused are stuck in a pattern, that they all share the same characteristics of being needy, overly empathetic, blind to men's aggression etc. when that's simply not true.

Ah ... see what you mean :)
Thank you.

Also garlic, when people say that the way to stop abuse, is for women to go on the freedom programme.

Yes, that may stop abuse for that woman. But it won't stop abuse for all women because the reason abuse happens, is because men choose to abuse and the rest of society supports them in doing that.

There would be no need for the freedom programme, if men didn't abuse women and the rest of society didn't stand by and let it happen.

I think the analysis of the dynamics of individuals' abusive relationships, can be different from the political analysis of the dynamics of abuse, without them contradicting each other. Quite hard walking that line though.

I can't go through the rest of my life doing what I've always done, Basil, and expecting different results! Sure, none of MY abuse would have happened without patriarchy but I'm acutely aware that sociopaths come in many guises, including female ones. Cycles of abuse will persist as long as the human psyche is like it is today. (Not forever, therefore, but I'm only looking another 30 years max.)

Understanding that cycle - as many aspects of it as I've been able to encompass so far - has been my work for the past ten years and counting. For me, it is a personal mission and my survival.

It cannot be reduced to a simple binary. Three are no goodies and baddies in nature. Among humans, baddies create goodies as victims. I correlate everything I learn about interpersonal relationships to the larger stage: politics, economics, societies, 'race' and of course gender politics.

I hope you realise that I agree patriarchy is bad for women, that it's unfair and counter-productive, and that people ought to wake up and do more about it. If you reduce patriarchy to 'bad men' and women to 'poor little loves' then you perpetuate the very fallacy that enables abuse. Women are responsible for their own oppression, in the same measure as I've been responsible for mine. To begin with I had no choice. Then I knew no better.

My political enlightenment came decades before my personal one. I worry that feminism is following a comparable path: going "Oh dear, well, that's the way of things, never mind, I can cope" while railing at the system that supports its abuse. That is a victim mentality, like it or not (I don't like it; I thought I was strong!)
The personal is immensely political and vice versa. I suspect my thoughts would frighten you.

By "You" in this post, I don't mean you personally. I mean committed, thinking feminist activists in general. And I apologise for compressing a decade's worth of frustration + compassion into a single, slightly ranting post.

I think I have interesting perceptions to share, loads more to hear and assimilate, and I'd love to discuss it here. I'm fed up of being shut down by others' polarised ideas of tormentor/victim and good/bad, women/men. I have no platform here.

garlic, sorry to hear what you have been through i think you have to recover and make yourself safe in your own way.

but i also think that it's good that pubes and basil bite back against possible victim blaming, it's inportant to stop this trend.

well I agree with you on all that garlic but I simply don't recognise your simplistic reduction of patriarchal structures down to goodies & baddies. I just don't recognise any of that and I don't think reducing it to that in that puzzlingly simplistic way, helps either political analysis or support for individual women.

and women are not responsible for their own oppression. They are the only group who are blamed for their own oppression, n no other group is blamed in this wa y and it is pretty much a basic feminist response, to ask why.

Garlic - I think I understand what you are saying, although correct me if I am wrong.

Patriarchy is oppressive of women and does accord women a lower status. Part of that is teaching men as a class that it is okay to control women and teaching women as a class to excuse or understand men's controlling behaviour. So patriarchy does support and encourage the abuse of women by men.

But on an individual basis, individual women can be attracted to men where they ignore all the red flags, even if they do recognise them and make constant excuses for thieir partner's abusive behaviour. And I agree I think there is a line between understanding and being supportive of women in that situation and women taking some personal responsibility to get out and stay out of this situation.

I think it is a fine line to tread without victim blaming, but I do think that line is there.

Haven't read entire thread but I feel for you edu, it is very frustrating not being able to make somebody else see how bad the situation is.

My friend was just starting to become strong enough to tell her DP that she wouldn't put up with him shouting at her, calling her names etc. He had done it before and that is why they don't live together, he just visits every few days to see her and their DD. But she recently told him to stop or they'd be finished. I said that was great, I even used a line from MN, that if she imagined one of her DDs being treated like that, would she want them to put up with it? Of course not. She'd never really seen it like that before and she totally agreed.

However her landlord has increased the rent massively and so they've decided to move in together at short notice as that's the only thing they can afford. And I know he hasn't quit the verbal abuse as DD came back from a visit saying X's daddy had been shouting at X's mummy and calling her naughty words. I know she has the strength to get out of it as her previous DP, (her DD1's dad) was similar and she kicked him out (this was long before I knew her). But now it seems like she is heading into the same situation. :(

Sorry I see the thread has moved on dramatically.

FWIW I don't see it as her fault, having low self esteem is never the sufferer's fault and it just gets beaten down further by assholes like her DP.

I think it is a fine line to tread without victim blaming, but I do think that line is there

I agree whole heartedly with this. And I think Bobble crossed that line

I agree I think there is a line between understanding and being supportive of women in that situation and women taking some personal responsibility to get out and stay out of this situation.

Thank you so much for this, Eats.

In my therapy I had to get to grips with 'learned helplessness' - a trigger phrase for many, I know, and am sorry for any upset. It ties in with the process whereby a target adopts the values of the oppressor (in my case, with no choice as I was his child) and proceeds to apply them to herself. This is a fundamental key to power & control. It also ties in with Stockholm Syndrome and related phenomena. This happens not only to individuals, but also to populations (personal political).

I really appreciate the replies :)
I feel a bit wobbly after splurging last night, so will take a rest from it now & come back later.