Quite shocked and disappointed by my friends' reactions. Am I being unfair?

[EduStudent]

I found out this evening that an acquaintance's boyfriend got physically abusive with her the other night. From what I understand, he pushed her over, then trashed all her belongings that were at his place, e.g. smashing perfume, ruining make-up etc.

I was told this by mutual friends, who were saying what an absolute cunt the boyfriend is. However, they then said that the ruining the make-up was the worst part and implied that the fact he hadn't offered to pay to replace it was worse than his lack of apology for physically hurting her .

They're also supposed to be going to Australia next week for a long holiday/short travelling and my various friends all basically said that she couldn't split up with him because it was booked and they'd lose out.

I don't entirely know why I'm posting this, other than I'm completely horrified that my friends seemed to think the make-up was worse than the physical stuff and that a holiday meant you had to stay together. I said that for me that would be an absolute dealbreaker and that it was a hateful thing to do.

It's the first time I've encountered violence in a relationship at such close proximity and just found my friends' reactions completely shocking. Is there anything you can do to change views like this? These are all young people at university, I guess I just thought that these views were old-fashioned and dying out, but apparently alive and kicking

Yeah... no. I'm actually lost for words.

So you think a woman in an abusive relationship gets a sense of pleasure and reward out of being abused, the same way a gambler does from gambling?

And you don't think addictive behaviour creeps up on a person slowly?

By saying that some men set out to break strong women you are agreeing with me. A broken woman is not a strong one.

It seems to me that you are disagreeing with what you imagine I'm saying rather than what I'm actually saying.

"I think it is the case that (mentally) strong women don't get abused. They may be attakced once, but not twice."

That's what you said Nickname. I honestly don't think chipmonkey is agreeing with you. Because you are wrong. And perpetuating myths about DV.

I have never been abused but my sister and best friend have - is this because I am stronger than them? Or because they were the ones unlucky enough to meet abusive men?

It creeps up on women but it is NOT addictive behaviour! If anything it's the man in these cases who displays an addiction to hurting women, hardly the other way round!

Being abused is passive, thus not a behaviour. Thus, it cannot be described as an addiction.

A woman can still be strong despite being abused. I know several tens of women who were just that. I think it takes a lot of strength to carry on with life outside the home as if everything at home is entirely normal, and free from abuse. It takes strength to employ whatever you believe will work to prevent your abuser assaulting you. It takes strength to finally find the courage to leave, or to wait things out while finding the best time to leave.

You assume every DV victim has the capacity to leave. I've heard of survivors who were locked in the house, unable to leave. I've heard of survivors who had no support network, so couldn't leave. I've heard of survivors who had no means of communication who were unable to leave. Staying in an abusive relationship isn't a sign of weakness. It just means the victim, for whatever reason, cannot leave in that particular moment in time.

And what makes you think I haven't been Kim?

An addicted gambler can lose their relationships, their homes, their friends, their health, their sanity, they can be driven to suicide, and yet still they are compelled to gamble, frothydragon.

That is not a million miles away from the woman who loses everything, but is still compelled to return to an abuser. It's often not fear or coercion that keeps people in abusive situations, but compulsion. And so it has alot in common with other forms of non-physical addiction. And women who find themselves in abusive relationships frequently have a history of other types of abuse from parents, previous relationships, school bullying, etc. Only 25% of abused women stay in them long enough for it to escalate into physical violence.

Can somebody give me an example of a woman with options who has let people mistreat her while she was strong? I don't mean she was strong before it happened and then she was weakened, nor do I mean she has become strong since it happened to her. I mean a strong person (with options, ie. was not coerced, or unable to leave) who allowed themselves to be mistreated on an ongoing basis.

If you have, then I suggest you read Pat Craven's "Living With The Dominator". Learn to stop blaming yourself. You'll find a new level of freedom then

Ohhh, so DV victims are compelled to be abused?

What is it we say with regards to DV and rape?

Put the blame on the perpetrator. Not the victim.

Yes I do know two such women Nickname. Two strong women who were abused by violent men, who had people ready to support them to leave, who were not physically prevented from leaving, and who did not, for a long time. I am not going to give details on a public forum.

I'm not sure what world you live in where women are divided into "weak" and "strong"?

And I am sorry if you have been abused, but you clearly need some help/counselling so that you can stop blaming the victims.

I didn't say anything at all about blame. The perpetrator is to blame. However the victim can be co-dependent.

Have you actually ever been in an abusive relationship, frothy? Because this all sounds more like theory than real life.

I kind of resent being told that my personal experience is a myth particularly by people who say they have no personal experience of the situation themselves.

There is a reward to being in an abusive relationship, there is a high from the apologies and intense periods in between the violence. There is a passivity in feeling powerless. There is a minor celebrity status to other people knowing about it. There is an element of ego feeling you can unbalance somebody to that extent. It is highly addictive and beguiling.

None of which means the victim is to blame, only that they have been effectively victimised and psychologically weakened.

Another example would be Natascha Kampusch who became complicit with her kidnapper/rapist and spent hours crying over his dead body in the morgue.

That is the nature of abuse I'm afraid. It's not pretty or simple because people aren't.

ethel

I truly hate threads where people who have learned various media mantras think it gives them a monopoly on opinions.

It was Frothy and others who waded in with the whole, "you have no right to think/say this" theme, and "your opinion is a myth".

It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask for somebody's credentials when they purport to know what they are talking about and is taking an aggressive stance on it.

Frothy is perfectly capable of staying in this thread. Don't patronise her or do her thinking for her.

I didn't make any claims about highs for your experience did I? I'm not sure why you brought that up.

Why not let Frothy and me speak for ourselves, Alphamum?

I don't recall you being part of the conversation, and a little knowledge is not so much a dangerous thing, but a waste of everyone's time.

Ok, so moved on somewhat!

I don't believe my friends are saying these things because they think she has the strength and capacity to make her own 'healthy' decisions They were talking as if she genuinely has no choice but to go on the Australia trip - 'But what can she do? She can't really not go?'

I can't remember who asked, but yes, I did lay my opinions out, that she had to get out of there, that she wouldn't be safe on the holiday and that of course she couldn't go. They did listen and didn't challenge, so hey, let's hope that They actually took it on board.

There have been some further developments in RL, but I am very conscious that this could be quite an identifiable situation, even where I've changed some details.

Nickname you are being very rude, unnecessarily so. I agree with Ethel. Asking someone whether they have been in an abusive relationship is out of order. It is not asking them for their credentials and it has backed Frothy into a corner.

You are victim-blaming. This is the feminist section (a fact you seem to be well aware of judging by the number of threads you have suddenly decided to post on - all in this section). Victim-blaming is always challenged here. Using words like weak and strong with regards to how people react to abuse is neither helpful nor accurate or valid. It is also inappropriate on a support thread like this.

OP I hope the further developments are good for your friend. I think challenging your other friends thought processes is about as much as you could have done at the time. If you can speak to the woman separately then that maybe useful to her, if only to know that someone us on her side. She may not realise at this moment in time but something you say could hit home later on down the line (if she doesn't leave now). Best of luck.

I do get what you're saying Nickname and I think you are right to a certain extent. A person who has grown up with abusive situations can see those situations as normal and thus get the same thrill and happiness from an abusive relationship as other people get from non-abusive relationships.

However, stating that no strong woman would stay in an abusive relationship is misleading and uninformative. It implies that there is a "type" of abused woman who is easy to spot, which isn't at all the case in my experience. A woman can appear strong and in control and yet be manipulated by her partner. In the case described by the OP the abused woman could, genuinely, be strong, and be in shock at what has happened. If her own friends are minimising it, then it stands to reason that she will think leaving is an overreaction. In that way society is colluding in allowing the abuse to continue, by sending her the message that her feelings don't really count and that she should forgive her abuser and go on holiday with him.

What is the point in distinguishing between "strong" and "not strong" women in relation to DV?

I'm very curious to know what the developments are Edu

Nickname, I don't like being backed into a corner and being asked if I've ever been in an abusive relationship. But, if you really must know, I have. As a result, spent 7 months in the refuge system. Not one of the women I met in that system could be called "weak", whether they were arriving on their first day, halfway through their stay, leaving the system, or in some cases going back to their ex partners.

As for you saying the way I talk about domestic abuse sounds more like "theory", that's how I deal with talking about domestic abuse. Sometimes it's dissociation, other times, I really just don't feel like talking about it. So, y'know. I talk about it from an outsider perspective

Edu, I hope the developments have been for the better. Support and solidarity to your friend.

And, FWIW, asking someone if they've been in an abusive relationship is a silencing tactic. And, for a lot of survivors, triggering. Please refrain from asking that question again.

OP I do hope the developments you mention are positive ones. You sound very caring in keeping an eye out for your acquaintance.

How do you differentiate between a strong woman and a weak woman? What are the criteria?

I know a fair few women who are in/out of abusive relationships, myself included

We are all what I would describe as 'strong'; opinionated, confident, independant (or have capacity to be easily).

Can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't compelled to stay, I didn't enjoy the UPS and downs. I stayed because I was confused, because I had misplaced faith in human nature, because I wad hopeful that it would change, because I thought I could change it, because I am optimistic, because I thought it was best for the kids. And because of the boiling frog syndrome; it crept up so slowly, I minimised it and thought 'it wasn't that bad'

No, sadly, I wouldn't say the developments are positive A bit complicated, not good, but at the same time a few glimmers of hope, in that she herself seems to recognise that it is not acceptable, although her actions are less than reassuring.