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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Radical Feminist Nuns are upsetting the Vatican, that's naughty isn't it :)

17 replies

MiniTheMinx · 10/06/2012 22:02

On R4 this morning an American nun was interviewed speaking about the women religious. The Vatican is about to launch an investigation into the organisation of the womens religious because in their opinion the nuns have become radical feminists???????

"The CDF claims the nuns? leaders have drifted into radical feminism and speakers at leadership events have expounded moving beyond the Church and even beyond Jesus. life.nationalpost.com/2012/06/09/crisis-of-sisterhood-as-nuns-face-social-realities-vatican-accuses-radical-feminism/

"The conflict came to the fore this week when the CDF said a 2006 book by Sister Margaret Farley posed a grave danger to the faithful by contradicting Church teaching on masturbation and homosexuality.The CDF also showed it has a long memory: it notes the sisters have yet to correct a 1977 document that questioned the all-male priesthood.

And while the CDF document commends U.S. nuns for their work in social justice, it scolds them for their silence on euthanasia and abortion"

Go Nuns................. again the church pulling itself apart at the seams from within.

So do you think it's possible to be any kind of feminist and be a nun? Is it possible to be a nun and stay silent on abortion? Are the nuns doing gods work? or are they doing women's work? Should the Vatican have the right to depoliticise the womens religious?

I'm not christian and have no bias and I wondered what other people think of this development.

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PlentyOfPubeGardens · 11/06/2012 07:07

Brilliant! This has brightened my morning Smile

I've always thought there was something a bit subversive about nuns. It's pretty much the only socially sanctioned way for women to live together and apart from men, without being accused of man-hatred and baby-eating.

I'm not a christian and have never been catholic so I'm not sure about your questions. I look forward to the responses.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 11/06/2012 07:11

Margaret Farley's book looks interesting. There's a chapter on Catherine MacKinnon.

BelfastBloke · 11/06/2012 07:14

"Who would have read Sister Margaret Farley?s ?Just Love? if the Vatican hadn?t censured it this week? The Catholic Church delivered the nun?s treatise on Christian sexual ethics from the wilderness of obscurity into the promised land of fame. For any book publicist, such denunciation is an answer to a prayer. On Amazon?s Web site, ?Just Love? immediately ascended from No. 142,982 to No. 16."

BelfastBloke · 11/06/2012 07:25

The Franciscans (who are a Mendicant Order: they survive on charity donations and therefore aren't tied into the massive wealth and prestige of the Catholic Church's business/political arm) have written this letter in support of the Women Religious:

"May 31, 2012

Open Letter to the United States Catholic Sisters

We, the Leadership of the Friars Minor of the United States, write today as your brothers in the vowed religious life who, like you, have great love for our Church and for the people whom we are privileged to serve. We write at a time of heightened polarization and even animosity in our nation and Church, with deep concern that the recent Vatican Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) may inadvertently fuel the current climate of division and confusion. We write, too, as a public sign of our solidarity with you as you endure this very difficult moment. We are privileged to share with you the journey of religious life. Like you, we strive in all that we do to build up the People of God.

As religious brothers in the Franciscan tradition, we are rooted in a stance of gratitude that flows from awareness of the myriad ways that God is disclosed and made manifest in the world. For us, there can be no dispute that God has been and continues to be revealed through the faithful (and often unsung) witness of religious women in the United States. Thus we note with appreciation that the Congregation for the Defense of the Faith (CDF) ?acknowledges with gratitude the great contributions of women Religious to the Church of the United States as seen particularly in the many schools, hospitals, and institutions of support for the poor which have been founded and staffed by Religious over the years.? We certainly know how much our service has been enriched by the many gifts you bring to these ministries.

However, your gift to the Church is not only one of service, but also one of courageous discernment. The late 20th century and the beginning of this century have been times of great social, political and cultural upheaval and change. Such contextual changes require us, as faithful members of the Church, to pose questions that at first may appear to be controversial or even unfaithful, but in fact are asked precisely so that we might live authentically the charisms we have received, even as we respond to the ?signs of the times.? This is the charge that we as religious have received through the ?Decree on the Renewal of Religious Life? from the Second Vatican Council and subsequent statements of the Church on religious life. We believe that your willingness to reflect on many of the questions faced by contemporary society is an expression of your determination to be faithful to the Gospel, the Church, the invitation from Vatican II and your own religious charisms. We remain thankful for and edified by your courage to engage in such reflection despite the ever-present risk of misunderstanding.

Moreover, we are concerned that the tone and direction set forth in the Doctrinal Assessment of LCWR are excessive, given the evidence raised. The efforts of LCWR to facilitate honest and faithful dialogue on critical issues of our times must not result in a level of ecclesial oversight that could, in effect, quash all further discernment. Further, questioning your adherence to Church teaching by your ?remaining silent? on certain ethical issues seems to us a charge that could be leveled against many groups in the Church, and fails to appreciate both the larger cultural context and the particular parameters of expertise within which we all operate.

Finally, when there appears to be honest disagreement on the application of moral principles to public policy, it is not equivalent to questioning the authority of the Church?s magisterium. Although the Catholic moral tradition speaks of agreement regarding moral principles, it also ? from the Middle Ages through today ? speaks of appropriate disagreement regarding specific application of these principles. Unfortunately, the public communications media in the U.S. may not recognize this distinction. Rather than excessive oversight of LCWR, perhaps a better service to the people of God might be a renewed effort to articulate the nuances of our complex moral tradition. This can be a teaching moment rather than a moment of regulation -- an opportunity to bring our faith to bear on the complexity of public policy particularly in the midst of our quadrennial elections.

Finally, we realize and appreciate, as we are sure do you, the proper and right role of the bishops as it is set out in Mutuae Relationes to provide leadership and guidance to religious institutions.[i] However, the same document clearly states:

since it is of utmost importance that the council of major superiors collaborate diligently and in a spirit of trust with episcopal conferences, ?it is desirable that questions having reference to both bishops and religious should be dealt with by mixed commissions consisting of bishops and major religious superiors, men or women. ?Such a mixed commission should be structured in such a way that even if the right of ultimate decision making is to be always left to councils or conferences, according to the respective competencies, it can, as an organism of mutual counsel, liaison, communication, study and reflection, achieve its purpose. (#63)

We trust that CDF was attempting to follow their counsel from Mutuae Relationes; however, we fear that in today?s public media world their action easily could be misunderstood. We hope that our bishops will take particular care to see that the way they take action is as important as the actions themselves in serving the People of God. Otherwise, their efforts will surely be misunderstood and polarizing.

Lastly, we appreciate the approach that you at LCWR have taken to enter into a time of discernment, rather than immediately making public statements that could be construed as ?opposing the bishops? after the release of the Doctrinal Assessment. The rancor and incivility of public conversation in the United States at this time make the possibility of productive dialogue more difficult to achieve. We pray that the future conversation between LCWR and CDF might provide an example to the larger world of respectful, civil dialog. Such dialog will require a degree of mutuality, trust and honesty that is absent from much of our world. We trust that you will continue your efforts to live out this principle, and we trust and pray that our bishops will do the same.

Please be assured of our on-going support, prayers, respect, and gratitude for your living example of the following of Christ in our times.

Fraternally,

Leadership of Franciscan (O.F.M.) Provinces of the United States

MiniTheMinx · 11/06/2012 08:22

Yes, it made my morning too Smile Thanks for the link, I think I might order the book but I wonder if the proceeds will go to Rome?

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catsrus · 11/06/2012 12:21

no mini the proceeds won't go to Rome - according to my "friend who knows these things" one of the reasons behind this is that the vatican wants to get it's hands on the Sister's assets - the clergy have bankrupt the church with payouts for paedophiles, the Sisters have property that they are using for things like soup kitchens and shelters and Rome wants its hands on it all, currently and historically they are independent and hold their own assets.

Love the letter from the Franciscan brothers, tossing the church's own regs back at them in a "we know you know this, and I'm sure this has just been misreported, but you can't possibly let a Bishop take control of the Sisters because our own regs say you can't, and we're sure you understand this really" wonderfully clever and yes, a bit passive aggressive but hey. My "friend who knows these things" also tells me that some of the Sisters are actually top lawyers and the Vatican doesn't stand a chance.

The convent historically was the place women went to when they didn't want to be married off for political reasons. The Sisters that taught me were powerful women who expected us girls to get out there and change the world.

CailinDana · 11/06/2012 13:03

I think this was bound to happen in a way. Up as far the 70s/80s women were pushed into being nuns by their families or by society - a lot of women saw it as the only way to escape abuse at home or as the only way to gain a career like teaching or nursing. Nowadays the women who go into the orders, especially in the western world, do it out of choice and are often well-educated women who see it as a chance to put their faith into action. There is only so long the church can treat women like that with contempt before they start to do something about it. In past times nuns had to do exactly what the local priest said and lived in fear of the bishop. That's no longer the case and if a solid movement of quiet dissent comes out it could be revolutionary. The Church depends massively on nuns to do the behind the scenes work and they can't just disown them without huge consequences.

That said, it galls me to think that a lot of people consider nuns to be gentle, blameless creatures oppressed by a patriarchal church. They terrorised children and women for centuries through schools, children's homes and Magdalene laundries and it bothers me that they are not being called account for their actions the way priests are. Perhaps it's part of the cultural tendency to view women as being incapable of abuse?

BelfastBloke · 11/06/2012 13:24

With regards to the OP's question, "So do you think it's possible to be any kind of feminist and be a nun?", I recall going to hear an academic lecture given by a clearly-feminist nun at Univ. Manchester.

As I recall, it was hosted by something like the Centre for Religion and Gender Studies or something, and it was about the history of speculums. At the back of the room were examples of speculums through the ages. Some of them very rusty, and others very gruesome-looking.

It might have been a book launch.

TeiTetua · 11/06/2012 13:26

Note the term "Radical Feminist" there. You would think that pretty basic feminism would raise some questions regarding orthodox Catholicism. I mean, "contradicting Church teaching on masturbation and homosexuality" and "questioning the all-male priesthood" seem like starting points, but maybe in the view of top Catholics, that's radicalism.

edam · 11/06/2012 13:33

Well done those nuns and the Fransiscans too.

It would be typical of the Church heirarchy down the ages to pretend a grab for power and money is about pulling naughty Catholics into line...

bumpkinbillionaire · 11/06/2012 13:45

Its all kicking off for our Catholic sisters

they have a Facebook page

NicknameSchmickname · 14/06/2012 00:58

Isn't nun and radical feminist an oxymoron? What radical feminist could be a member of the Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Hindu faiths?

fridakahlo · 14/06/2012 01:52

It's the best place for subverting power, from the interior.

FrothyDragon · 14/06/2012 03:06

Nickname, I know a few radical feminists who still belong to those faiths. There's no part of radical feminism that says you have to become an atheist.

NicknameSchmickname · 14/06/2012 09:31

Well then they must be indulging in cognitive dissonance. You don't have to be an atheist to be a radical feminist, no, but you would have to leave an organisation that promotes gender caste systems and patriarchal supernatural parliaments.

FrothyDragon · 14/06/2012 09:51

Ohhhh, is this the "You're not a radical feminist if..." game?

I do love this game. Please tell me more about who is and isn't a rad fem. Most fascinating.

MiniTheMinx · 14/06/2012 10:41

I'd love to know too

I guess it depends on whether you think the old adage "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" has any truth to it.

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