Where do me opinions fall?

[sereneswan]

I'm not an 'active' feminist. I just have my opinions and do the odd bit of reading online. My opinions aren't formed by any particular body of feminist thinking because I'm not really versed in it.

I'm feel particularly strongly about the expectations placed on the appearance of women, and my attitude is along the lines of 'if the boys don't have to do x, it's probably a load of oppressive nonsense'. Hence I have a very visceral dislike of heels, make-up, shaving etc. It's just a personal thing - that gets my goat more than a lot of other stuff. I don't really know why. Probably because my mother is incredibly appearance focussed and put a lot of pressure on me to look a certain way, and also because I don't wear make-up and get totally fed up with people thinking I should or treating me like I'm odd because of it.

My opinions extend to feeling that women who do do this stuff are 'letting the side down' and betraying women as a whole.

Anyway, everything I read suggests that my views are utterly outdated, if not downright unreasonable and I'm 'anti-femme' which apparently makes me horrible and now it's all about 'lipstick feminism'. Apparently the only reason women do this is for themselves and it has nothing to do with the fact that society generally expects it of them. (Frankly I don't buy this but I accept that I'm in a minority on that).

So, are my views fairly extreme?

Yeah, that would be 'my' in the title, not 'me'.

Fail...

This idea of expectations placed on the appearance of women - -where does it originate?

On the front of the Mirror today is a fiancee of one of the England team footballers. She is dressed in her best bikini, and accompanied by a 'WAG' headline so beloved of the redtops. Her fiance will be a multi-millionaire in his early twenties, and can look forward to earning many more millions in the next few years.

I see pictures like this and wonder - why does she do it? She can't need the money, and surely there are better thing to do with your time than pose in your skimpies. Without any financial pressure, what can induce an educated Western female to think that being a WAG (wives and girlfriends of footballers for the uninitiated) is a useful occupation?

Hmm interesting one, I too dislike the cultural expectations surrounding women's appearance, but I don't go as far as you. However, I will only use make up/clothes etc. to enhance how I feel rather than to project a certain image/expectation if you see what I mean.

For example, I realised around 6 months ago, that men do not really clense,tone moisturise/have a day and night moisturiser etc and yet their skin rarely looks any worse/older than a woman of the same age. So I completely dropped all skin care products other than soap or oil to wash my face with if it's feeling like it needs washing and then a spf sun cream for if it's sunny/I'm going to be outdoors a lot. I have saved SO MUCH MONEY!

In my opinion, this is why the aspirations of many women have gone down the toilet. They think hanging on to some bloke's coat tails is a job! They make me puke quite frankly and just put up with any crap behaviour from the bloke to keep the money. I mean FGS who in their right mind would forgive their partner for having sex with prostitutes when they were in a relationship. Its a very high price to pay for being rich. When I was in my teens and probably into my 20s I was sure I was going to change the world but young women dont seem to feel like that now in general, though I know some still do.

Im kind of like you-in theory-in practice I like to be free of bodily hair and i like the hair on my head to be all 'swingy' and shiney

but (just been saying this an another thread) I tried really hard to discourage my daughter from being stereotyped into dollies etc...but she LOVES pink/glitter/fluff/kittens etc...she loves getting dressed up in frocks and pesters all teh time for high heels (too young yet). She also plays rugby and football, and loves that too

I think its wrong to EXPECT girls to be 'girly' but equally I dont think it should be viewed as a 'bad thing' (which was my POV until I had my daughter) I think it is a feminist stance to ridicule 'feminine ladies'/assume they are vacuous and brainwashed?? Or maybe I am out of date too? is this not current thinking?.....its the subliminal message i get

another poster, posted this on t'other thread.
I think there are far bigger issues than outward appearance, and its so hard to determine whether it is due to expectations or if it is choice;

Beachcomber Fri 08-Jun-12 12:12:26
finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/05/10/faq-but-men-and-women-are-born-different-isnt-that-obvious/

Masculine and feminine traits have been culturally placed in opposition to each other, and claimed to thus complement each other and result in harmony when men and women are constrained within the accepted sex roles. Masculine roles differ across societies, but are always portrayed as not only different from but also superior to the feminine.

Gender essentialism is the assumption that women are naturally like this, while men are naturally like that, and nature made it so and anyone who deviates from that pattern is a freak. Most commonly it comes in the form of ?women are naturally submissive and men are naturally dominant?.

Plus wiki is not too bad on femininity although it doesn't explore the masculine/feminine hierarchy in any depth.

Harry Enfield on femininity. Women know your limits.

Masculine roles differ across societies, but are always portrayed as not only different from but also superior to the feminine

i think its ok to be feminine-what needs to change IMO is that feminine should not be seen as inferior to masculine

I think there are far bigger issues than outward appearance

I agree bejeezus, which (ironically, perhaps) is why this issue gets to me so much. It's precisely because it's so unimportant that the obsession of the media and large parts of society as a whole with appearance (which the vast majority of the time equates to an obsession purely with the appearance of women, not men) strikes me as so damaging and so ridiculous and infuriating.

Not to mention the fact that making it matter so much when it shouldn't damages women incaculably in terms of self esteem. And low self esteem about appearance inevtably often spreads to become generally low self esteem. Not to mention literally the time and money spent by women to try to adhere to standards of beauty expected of them, which they could spend doing other things that they might ultimately find more rewarding and liberating. At the risk of sounding a bit conspiracy-theorist it does sometimes seem like as soon as we manage to get out of the house and into jobs etc society (to pick the least loaded term I can think of) finds a new way of trying to keep women insecure, preoccupied and obedient.

Apparently the only reason women do this is for themselves and it has nothing to do with the fact that society generally expects it of them. (Frankly I don't buy this but I accept that I'm in a minority on that).

What you are describing here appears to me to be the divergence between "fun feminism" (or "choice" or "liberal" feminism, which holds that anything women choose for themselves is feminist and empowering, whether it's pole-dancing or any other pursuit), and second-wave feminism or today's radical feminism, which holds that the choices women make in the context of a patriarchy are not truly free choices at all.

So regarding the question in your OP, my diagnosis is that your opinions fall in the second wave/radical feminist range.

You are not alone. Although definitely in a minority, societally speaking.

I agree with you on this sort of thing "I'm feel particularly strongly about the expectations placed on the appearance of women, and my attitude is along the lines of 'if the boys don't have to do x, it's probably a load of oppressive nonsense'. " this is the root of it all.

OTOH I don't agree with you on this sort of thing "My opinions extend to feeling that women who do do this stuff are 'letting the side down' and betraying women as a whole." as all women (all people) are raised in a society that strongly pushes them in one direction and you can't then jump up and down on them for basically doing as they have been told all their life.

i also came here without having read any feminist books or anything but found that my opinions and views chimed most closely with those who describe themselves as radical feminists.

I agree with you, women are used like dolls for the desires of male sexuality.

Hmm, I see what you are saying but I don't see that its letting the side down to enjoy wearing makeup and heels. I get a very simple, visceral pleasure from buying nice clothes and cosmetics, and don't feel conditioned into doing so. Aesthetics are very important to some people, others not so much. Excluding the media and teenagers, I don't think its that big a deal to most women I know. Most of my friends don't wear makeup day to day, and don't feel pressure to look like WAGs or TOWIE girls. Not wearing makeup or heels isn't some brave stand against society, its just a choice, I think.

Hmm, I see what you are saying but I don't see that its letting the side down to enjoy wearing makeup and heels. I get a very simple, visceral pleasure from buying nice clothes and cosmetics, and don't feel conditioned into doing so. Aesthetics are very important to some people, others not so much. Excluding the media and teenagers, I don't think its that big a deal to most women I know. Most of my friends don't wear makeup day to day, and don't feel pressure to look like WAGs or TOWIE girls. Not wearing makeup or heels isn't some brave stand against society, its just a choice, I think.

It's interesting stuff! I don't think I would qualify as a radical feminist and I loathe the sneery term 'funfem' because gosh, most feminists I know started out somewhere around there and have radicalized the more they learned.

I certainly agree with this which holds that the choices women make in the context of a patriarchy are not truly free choices at all. - I also think everyone makes bargains with the patriarchy to survive. So, for example, I absolutely never wear makeup at home, nor to 'go out' or 'for a treat.' I don't enjoy it. (Love jewelry, mind you!) - and I hate wearing heels and never do. But for work, as well as a smart, clean, ironed outfit, I wear tinted moisturizer, powder, mascara and a smidge of blush and lipstick.
Because I enjoy it? No. But a 'subtly made up' face is as much a professional requirement in my line of work as a clean, ironed, 'professional' outfit is. for women. An oppressive beauty standard to which men do not have to adhere? Yes, absolutely. A bargain I'm willing to strike in order to do a job I really like? Yep, alright.
There are certainly bargains I wouldn't strike - someone patting my bum or calling me 'luv' or something - but a bare minimum of makeup is just on the right side of "i can bear it" for me.
Doesn't mean I don't think it's absurd, though. It's all about the bargains you're willing/able to strike. I think I can safely say if I was a bazillionaire I'd never wear makeup again, but job = bills paid.

And am presently sitting at home in a tshirt and shorts - hairy legs and all!

Judging a woman who is into grooming, make up, fashion and heels as "letting the side down and betraying women as a whole" is as oppressive as expecting a woman to do all that stuff.

I don't see the point in trying to remove one form of dictate by replacing it with another.

But what do I know? I'm one of those choicy-choicy empowerful liberals.

as all women (all people) are raised in a society that strongly pushes them in one direction and you can't then jump up and down on them for basically doing as they have been told all their life.

Good point sardine queen. In my defence although I needed to state this as my honest view for the purposes of this thread, I would never let my opinion alter my behaviour towards another woman. Yes, I'm human, I judge people to some extent according to my opinions and beliefs, but I try not to let that judgment translate into doing anything rude or inconsiderate.

It might also be relevant to say that I and others like me are frequently criticised openly by other women for being weird, frumpy, 'boring', or not 'making an effort', or even 'ugly'. My views on some other women may be seen as harsh, but in my experience, so are the views of many on me. I'm not saying that makes anything better, but it's a relevant point.

Judging a woman who is into grooming, make up, fashion and heels as "letting the side down and betraying women as a whole" is as oppressive as expecting a woman to do all that stuff.

I see your logic WidowWadman, I just can't actually buy it. My logic is as follows: heels, makeup, typically feminine 'alluring' styles of dress etc all surely have their origins as things that women were expected to do (or at least very disadvantaged if they didn't) for the purposes of attracting men. To me claiming that women can every do those things purely for themselves, out of choice seems about as logical as claiming that a women who, for example, stays in an abusive relationship that she has become accustomed, is doing so out of choice, and is empowered by doing so. (Don't flame me for the analogy, I've been in one).

For the record I love clothes, beatiful colours, fabrics, shapes, new things, evocative things, jewellery etc, and I like making the effort to look what I consider to be nice. I'm not condemning femininity or the expression of it in material, appearance based ways, only ways that I see as logically conflicting with true empowerment or free choice.

I'm prepared to be torn to pieces

I find your point of view rather patronising.

I also don't buy the old trope that it is only women who are expected to groom themselves.They groom differently, which explains the difference in market sizes, but it's not true that a man who is not looking after his physical appearance would get away with it any more than a woman, especially in professional contexts.

Widowwadman that is ridiculous yes men are expected to be clean, and that's about it! They are not expected to spend time painting their faces, ripping hair out of their bodies, wearing shoes that hinder movement and cause pain. It is significantly more that women are expected to do to even be seen as passably presentable. Amd the things men have to do do not hurt and weaken them.

Yeah, because wearing a suit and a tie is so bloody comfortable, especially in warm weather.

And maybe they're not using as much make up, but removal of facial hair is pretty expected.

Removal of facial hair for men is not pretty expected. I see loads of blokes of all ages every day with varying degrees of facial topiary. In fact, I notice it now because of previous claims on this board that men had immense pressure to shave. Loads of them resist. In fact, there's a whole month (Movember) where facial hair growing for men is encouraged and celebrated in the name of charity.

As for the OP, you might find this thread interesting.

Yes there are some smaller expectations on men in terms of some work places (I don't think that is a positive thing) but you cannot even compare it to what women are expected to do in terms of grooming. Is that not obvious? Clean shaven men is not standard. Many men have facial hair. But even so again how does that compare to makeup, hair styling, hair removal, make up, high heels?

And again, ties don't actually HURT or restrict movement!!

WW, are you watching the footy? There's male facial hair EVERYWHERE!

Rulers - and your point is? Footballers are now a representative sample of society? If footballers do it, Joe Blogs does it too?

I'm working in an office, and the dresscode for men is way stricter than for women, as there's plenty of casual women's wear you can get away with in the office, while there is no way around suit and tie for blokes,