do you believe in the patriarchy?

[bejeezusWC]

A poster on another thread said she views feminism as the struggle against patriarchy. That is how I view it too. I believe that is considered the rad fem stance?

Another poster said she didn't believe in patriarchy

I don't geddit

Why/how are women so unequal if not for patriarchal societies? WHO has been oppressing us?

Please tell me what you think, if you don't believe in patriarchy

And yes, non-white people too. The ladder thing applies.

Oh, I see. Can you link us to your campaigning, EclecticShock? Guarantee you'll get masses of support from here.

Or you could, you know, start a thread if you haven't got your fight off the ground yet? Lots of experience of activism you could tap into.

Rulers, that's rude. You have no idea of how I help other women against injustice. I would say I do my fair share. Honestly, try living others lives and putting yours in perspective.

I am "she" in the OP who doesn't believe in the patriarchy

I do think it is a bit like religion. Religious people see evidence of god everywhere. Sometimes I get into discussion with someone about their faith and they say "god is not really a super human-like figure ('man with a beard') who answers prayers, it is more like all that is good in the world". Well I believe in "all that is good in the world" I just don't call it god, or ascribe it to a single cause.

The answers here that the patriarchy is all that is bad in society (or at least in relation to men and women) remind me of that conversation.

We could just ignore the differences and each understand patriarchy in our own way. But I think it undermines clear thinking about issues by giving pat answers.

When people say "the patriarchy loves/hates it when..." to support an argument which really means "I think it it is a bad/good idea to do this" it seems analogous to me to saying "god wants you to/doesn't want you to". Maybe it is just a short hand between people who agree with each other but I think it is sloppy - it stops people thinking through or spelling out why they think something is bad or good and arguing the point - because who wants to argue for the patriarchy?!?

There is a natural tendency in humans to want to explain things in terms of agency -goodies and badies, friends and foe. It is much more intuitively attractive to say that god created the world for a purpose than to say that it evolved through billions of purposeless interactions. Similarly it feels more "true" to think that inequality between
men and women is because men have chosen to oppress women, and women have been duped and overpowered, than to try to understand the processes of biology and economics which underpin culture.

Ultimately I don't think "patriarchy" is useful as a way of understanding and explaining the state of the world. It separates biology and society and treats them as two different things. That human males and females are relatively different (not as different as some species, not as similar as others) indicates that there has always been a division of roles between males and females that goes beyond pregnancy and BF (which relate to all mammals) and that there was some evolutionary advantage for men to grow relatively muscley and aggressive, and women to develop concealed ovulation (both expensive strategies in evolutionary terms, so they must have been advantageous -because "men were stronger and wanted to control women's fertility" doesn't explain things - it begs an explanation)

The biggest reason I don't believe in patriarchy is that it falls for the naturalistic fallacy that natural means "good" (and that naturalistic explanations are justifications). This is just not true.

The patriarchy explanation seems to me very like the myth of "The Fall" (except this time Eve is duped). The idea that there was a time when there were humans very like us in character, ability and physiology but without the bad stuff is a myth. If you build feminism on that myth it intellectually shaky, even if it's moral impulses are mainly good.

Ecletic, Rulers has fair point. This thread is about one thing. If you want to discuss FGM or forced marriage, then start a thread. You will get a good reception I think....

I agree with himalaya.

Obviously I care about fgm and forced marriages. But that doesn't mean that sexism does not exist here. Just because it is worse elsewhere doesn't take away from the fact that women are treated badly here too! That's like saying that black people were fine in America before the civil rights movement because at least they weren't treated like the Jews in the holocaust. Where you live is the place you can make the most difference. Every feminist I have met cares about sexism everywhere and on every level. And wants change for US ALL!

I would but I dont feel the need to discuss those issues, I believe they are wrong and I support through actions not meaningless discussion.

But what if that discussion educated a number of others?

Himalaya. I do not believe that patriarchy is natural as you have said we do? I think it is socially constructed. Gender is something we create to distinguishe and role divide. What makes you think that patriarchy is something that's natural (even though you don't believe the theory)?

utter straw man carp though. who on earth here thinks there was a time when men and women very similar to us lived in a eutopia? no one.

who here thinks biology and society are entirely separate?

it is a lovely bit of prose but the arguments it is arguing against are not the arguments of feminists who believe we live in a patriarchal system so...? either you really don't get what it is feminists are saying or you are deliberately misinterpreting what they say

For example FGM is not discussed much in the press. You could live your live without finding out about it..... Ergo discussion about it here is not meaningless.

But you are assuming things about other posters on this forum, Eclectic. It is not my place to tell women with different experiences how to tackle the issues within their own communities. Support I can give (the chocks analogy from earlier). I can still see the over-riding pattern (or one of them) as I see it and will point it out. I frequently check my own privilege, and point out the privilege of others when they are spouting. Not perfect, mind, and never claim to be so. Disagree with me all you like, but attack my politics, not me, even if it is in a group sense.

Himalaya, I would ask you the same questions. Do you see there is inequality vis a vis men and women? If so, why do you think there is and what mechanisms are in place to maintain it? And just for you , what is the best way of explaining the world?

and to analyse patriarchy YES we acknowledge and look at biology and economics because they are a part of things. but the fact still remains that the biology has been exploited (we're not animals anymore and are capable of organising in fairer ways) and the economics have been based on exploitation. it's not that there was once a great time it's that NOW should become the great time. we are evolved, intelligent, highly resourced and should be capable of designing systems that work for all yet we don't because we live in a patriarchy were the conditions of some are more important than the positions of others.

ES, paygaps do matter. There has been stuff in the media about women in the UK who are skipping meals so they can afford to feed their kids.

As for FGM, it certainly is a UK problem:

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/hilary-burrage/female-genital-mutilation-britain_b_1573845.html

Eclectic - I don't agree with you!

I do think it is a problem that, for example men and women get science degrees at similar rates but that 80% of patents are registered by men. Clearly this is not an injustice like FGM, but it is still a sign that something is wrong - if nothing else it's a massive waste of resources and potential.

It's not winging to point that out and to try to work out how to solve it (or any number of other issues related to sexual inequality in the west) dont think it's as simple as "male scientists oppress female scientist,
or its all sexism, although im sure theses part of it.

FGM is a human rights issue. There is no human rights Top Trumps that says you can't talk about wheelie bins or healthcare or whatever public policy issues in the UK because people are in a worse state elsewhere.

80% or patents are registered by men... And... This is down to patriachy? Seriously, this board is full of crap. Wake up.

I think there's a lot going on in Britain that rarely makes it to the news. I heard that article about women skipping meals to feed their children. I see homelessness on the streets. It makes me so angry - yet you can guarantee that someone will make a smart arse comment about no one should be going hungry in todays country, I've bet they've got flat screen TVs etc.

And I think in some of the more isolated communities, there is a lot of stuff going on like FGM that we don't know about. There was a boy I think who was accused of witchcraft (in this country) and murdered horribly.

So much hate going on. So much not wanting to get involved going on. So much it's not my problem, my life is fine.

Well, a lot of people's lives are not fine in this country.

You've only got to look at AIBU on here to see some problems people have (and I know, I've contributed as well). I don't see anyone saying "AIBU to not feed myself today and give the food to my kids"

Scientists get grants through publications. You don't publish, you don't get grants - therefore no real scientific career.

You publish by research. By staying ahead of the game. By keeping informed at conferences.

I am not sure of the profile of successful female scientists who are parents cf non parents. I would bet there is more of a difference between male scientists who are parents and non parents.

You get out of the game for a while - you lose credibility. Whose fault is that and how can it be changed?

"Male scientist oppress female scientist" -no, it's certainly not operating exclusively on a micro level. This is an individual vs group thing again, isn't it?

One day, when we have have been reduced back down to manageable numbers by an asteroid or nuclear war or cimate change (wooo!) or something, I hope that we can grow the fuck up and resource, ability and effort allocate better.Not in some commie-hippy sense, but just in a way that doesn't fuck pretty much everyone over in the process.

Or, as my (male) boss said today "I wish they'd all fuck off to Cocksville, Arizona and let us all get on with it." And he is no feminist.

Do you need to be so rude ES?

I think people will post a lot on MN about their own smaller problems as a distraction from more serious problems in their own lives that they want to avoid thinking about or they don't feel comfortable discussing.

In fact that happens in life in general, not just on MN.

Yes, because right now I'm all out of patience with everything being twisted to suit your agenda. It's ridiculous and frankly a poor demonstrations of women fighting for equal rights. Victim, victim, victim is all I read on this board. It's defeatist and procrastination.