do you believe in the patriarchy?

[bejeezusWC]

A poster on another thread said she views feminism as the struggle against patriarchy. That is how I view it too. I believe that is considered the rad fem stance?

Another poster said she didn't believe in patriarchy

I don't geddit

Why/how are women so unequal if not for patriarchal societies? WHO has been oppressing us?

Please tell me what you think, if you don't believe in patriarchy

I have learnt to challenge, where I might once have let lie. I am working up to activism.

The worrying thing is - a lot of men think equality exists. You get the quotes "Well, you wanted equality - this is what you get".

I'm not sure some men know what inequality looks like and keep on acting in their own way.

I also agree about how the way children are brought up by parents has a lot to answer for it. Imposing societies expectations on both sexes. Coupled with what a child sees, hears and observes. And no one brings other people up on sexism or gender stereotyping attitudes.

I remember watching Outnumbered when the mum had a go at her teenage son for making comments about a girls breasts. He then retorted with the fact she and her girlfriends were making comments about their builder.

A lot has to change - attitudes towards how we live our life and are expected to fit in according to our sex need to be modified.

I'm not sure what that world would be like but it's got to be a lot better than the one we have at the moment.

That's a good start Portofino .

Hence - my dad yesterday posted some shit photo of a little girl struggling over sums on a blackboard, with the tag line "sod maths, I'll become a stripper" or something of that nature. My sister is a fecking maths teacher. Once upon a time, I probably would have ignored. No more. I told him it was completely inappropriate - and why. I think he is a lost cause though....

Porto - me too. Consciousness raising and low-level stuff is where I'm at until I find my feet. I didn't realise how much I had been taught that The Powers That Be decided things and I was just a very small cog in a very big wheel until I discovered feminism. It's not true. Big things can happen because of the focus even one person, let alone one with people behind them.

Ofc, there's evidence all around us all the time. I don't understand how people with logical brains can argue that it doesn't happen.

Too bad if it is too late for your dad Porto. If he takes the photo down because of something you said, that is a big thing.

Simply speaking out about sexism and misogyny is a powerful action.

Teaspoons, innit.

I don't agree with a lot of stuff on Shakesville, but I think the teaspoon thing is cool.

I believe in patriarchy in some instances. However, there comes a time when you have to stop focusing on what could possibly oppress you and start focusing on you and women in general. There's no doubt it exists in some countries but in the uk, I think the playing field is level enough for us to stop focusing on it and start focusing on women and our potential in general. It's an evolving thing and dependent on which society you live in. There are different levels of patriarchy and in the uk, I don't see how it is relevant right now.

I think it was reading the Equality Illusion that tipped me over the edge. I always thought I lived an nice egalitarian life and that the battle was nearly won. Then I discovered FWR on MN and that book and realised that I was very, very wrong. And that many of my long held beliefs were just castles of sand. And I started the learning process. I love it.

Electricshock, what makes you think we are on a level playing field in the uk? Women are still paid significantly less and women are still raped and sexually assaulted. A fraction of mp's are women and society deems a women's worth on her looks and sex appeal, more and more women are mutilating their bodies through plastic surgery for the benefit of men. We are not equal yet, we are a long way off.

I have learned so much here. Like a lot of women who have thought for years that feminism was important I have been an activist off and on. I have always found that having beliefs and some analysis is a motivator for action. It makes you realise there is a point in doing things and you can achieve real changes.

I think a lot of us feel like very small cogs in a very big wheel.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world"

Gandhi

A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step

Lao-Tzu

The worst prejudice can be that received at the hands of childless women who think they know it all better.

And I don't think it is a matter of battling opression either. Most men, if you were to ask them, would say yy women are equal. It's the silent stuff, the innate thinking, in women as much as in men that needs to be challenged. The idea that you dress/treat boys different from girls when they are infants and onwards.

I posted on MN today about an issue where dh exhibits that his needs are paramount. I say "selfish" - many agree. But still there are suggestions that I could read a manual or compromise myself in some way to keep things harmonious. Advice from women. And I don't blame them - it is what we are taught - and what the manuals continue to teach....if you want to catch a man and keep him here is how you modify your behaviour.... Bollocks.

I can't look at the relationships thread. Some are fine, but some the women seem resigned to their male partner's needs coming first.

I am massively focussed on women and their potential. Part of that requires looking at the stuff that prevents them (and us) from reaching their potential, though. I can't just rah, rah, rah without recognising the fuckers that tried to stop her along the way because she was a woman.

On the ladder of life, women start a few rungs lower than an equivalent man and there is very often no-one guarding her chocks. I can't do that much about the former, but I sure as hell will do the latter.

My son announced he was a feminist today, and I was proud.
No patriarchy in this house.

I wish my chocks were better guarded. I feel as though it is a constant struggle, I really do. My students see me as some kind of role model, and while that's nice, I often think "If only you knew ...".

I've got my foot against your chocks, BM, even if it's only on here.

Actually, I'm glad I came up with that analogy, because it gives me strength to stand up. Or put my foot forward, or something.

When I hear men say "How do I combine fatherhood with my career?" or "I can't afford childcare" or "How can I feed the family on £x this week?" or "My child is being bullied - what can I do?" or "Disposable nappies - pros and cons, please?" more than once in a blue moon, then I'll know we have equality. Oh, and when men stop being disproportionately violent towards women (I'd rather they stopped being violent towards anyone - how's that for equality?).

Until women's choices are not constrained by what men allow them to have, then I will keep seeing the patriarchy in action.

I know many women who are not paid less then male counterparts and they refuse to buy into patriarchy rules. Men are assaulted and raped too. My dad is Indian and when he came here he met lots of racism but that disnt stop him being one of the best at his profession. Seriously, you will never be deemed as equal while you spend so much energy on looking for to others to blame.

You won't either. You aren't, whether or not you believe in the patriarchy or not.

I'd far rather that all of those at the top of their game got there because of their merits, rather than because of their penises, the colour of their skin or their wisdom in their choice of birth parents. I just choose the former as my fight at this moment in my life.

Add message | Report | Message poster RulersMakeBadLovers Fri 08-Jun-12 21:58:25
You won't either. You aren't, whether or not you believe in the patriarchy.

Please explain?

Electricshock. It's not blaming others, it's looking at the problems and trying to change them. That's much more proactive than pretending it doesn't exist. I didn't realise that your few friends were representative of the whole population. And yes men do experience sexual assault on vastly lower scale and usually at the hands of men. Patriarchy is not a positive thing for the majority of men either and many men suffer at the hands of it too. But to say 'men get sexually assaulted too' is ridiculous, as though that justifies the thousands and thousands of women who have been raped? It still means women are treated as second class citizens.
I don't understand what your point is about your dad? Racism is fucking awful too and it is much harder for non whites as well as women to achieve highly. Ok so he did well in his field that's great, there's still almost no non white politicians, judges, editors, police; the people who actually control and shape our lives and it's the same with a lack of women. The people in power are white men. No point denying. Pretending it's not there doesn't make it go away.

You aren't equal in the eyes of many (most?) of the population of this country, let alone in non Western ones. You do read the rest of MN, don't you? The standards you are expected to uphold as a woman (and because you are a women) are vastly excessive when compared to men and those are telegraphed frequently and loudly by popular culture.

Male dominated spheres of life (even if there are no logical reasons for them being so) are still areas where women have to be better than men (or make more sacrifices) to achieve the same level of success. I see it every day in my line of work (and I'm not competing, only observing - I have taken a different route for non-vagina related reasons).

Im going to leave this thread as self pitying really isn't my style. Why don't you focus your efforts on those who are rurally oppressed like forced marriages and genital mutilation. The uk culture really has it good, if you can't see that...I'm sick of so called feminists on here whinging about pay gaps when women are being oppressed truely outside of their control on other cultures. No one discuss that much on here. This section is about self pitying rather than helpin those less fortunate than yourselves.