do you believe in the patriarchy?

[bejeezusWC]

A poster on another thread said she views feminism as the struggle against patriarchy. That is how I view it too. I believe that is considered the rad fem stance?

Another poster said she didn't believe in patriarchy

I don't geddit

Why/how are women so unequal if not for patriarchal societies? WHO has been oppressing us?

Please tell me what you think, if you don't believe in patriarchy

Dittany

The piece of data you brought was ''In the last century the largest amounts of casualities of wars were women and children." as a piece of evidence to support the belief that male violence mainly targets women.

I questioned the interpretation of that piece of data, since women and children represent the majority of the population.

I don't see how it is a pointless discussion to ask whether the interpretation of a piece of data is correct.

Otherwise why bring facts and data in at all?

Dittany -

I think I am a feminist.

I don't think that any woman should be raped, trafficked, abused, excluded from education, denied their rights, discriminated against in any way, or forced or coerced into doing things she doesn't want to do, or to staying in a dangerous situation. I think that rapists and abusers should be brought to justice, and that cultures and institutions need to change so that these things are not seen as acceptable.

I don't need to believe in the patriarchy or an "all out male assault on the female half of the human race" to see that these things are wrong. Maybe that makes me an anti-feminist in your book.

You said up thread "You're wrong about male violence, it is used most against women and children. In the last century the largest amounts of casualties. of wars were women and children."

It is the interpretation of that data that I am disputing. Women and children by definition make up the majority of just about every population and where there is a large proportion of young people (as in most conflict states) it can be 60-80%.

Him - You can obviusly call yourself what you want. From the above post, it doesn't sound like you are a feminist - just a decent human being. I mean who decent actually wants women to be raped, abused, etc.

But feminism, of any kind, is more than that. It is about recognising in patriarchy and trying to fight it. That really is a basic feminist belief. Just like believing in God is a basic Christain belief.

Fair point dittany. You are right. It is real, like capitalism

Would it be wrong to suggest "the patriarchy" means the same as "All women suffer sexism"? (or something like that; brain needs rest)

Would that be any easier to relate to, Himalaya?

all women are affected by sexism

I used to believe all that women think differently to men/Mars vs Venus type crap. I don't any more. I think it is a load of bollocks wrapped up nicely so that women will accept shitty behaviour from men. And men don't read those books do they.....

I've never read it.

Porto - Totally agree!

Oh, read it, Himalaya, it's good for a few major eye-rolling sessions.
Summary: Women are like waves. Men like their caves.
Eyes rolling yet?

"?when a man can listen to woman's feelings without getting angry and frustrated, he gives her a wonderful gift. He makes it safe for her to express herself. The more she is able to express herself, the more she feels heard and understood, and the more she is able to give a man the loving trust,acceptance,appreciation,admiration,approval, and encouragement that he needs.?

Yuk!

yes we live in patriarchal society
its multifaceted and not everyone experiences it to same extent
i also think its enacted and maintained by both genders - men and women use and abuse class,position,opportunity

EBAL - I have been thinking about this, because I always thought I was a feminist.

I have read some of the definitions of feminism someone posted as a feminism 101 link on another thread.

E.g. " If you believe in, support, look fondly on, hope for, and/or work towards equality of the sexes, you are a feminist."

And "There are just two pieces of dogma in my feminist tent:

-Society deals with gender in a way that, on balance, harms women.
-This is a problem that must be corrected."

I agree with those so I guess I still am. (.... Unless those definitions are wrong)

Him - Sounds like you are a feminist. Not a radfem perhaps, but a feminist yes. Great that you are a feminist

Dittany - yes it is very liberal feminism. But it is a start

Lots of positive things in that quote Porto (08.21) but they should all apply both ways equally - all that last line of stuff - I need that too !!

Dittany - If feminists don't need other people to tell them what they are, then I don't think Himalaya needs you to categorise her feminism and how valid it is for her.

The definition Himalaya has quoted is one that many women subscribe to and IMO, anything that gets women on board and makes them think "Yes, I believe in that and I want to be a part of making it happen", is a good thing.

I'd take inclusiveness over ideological purity any day.

Goth, Himalaya, Dittany, Eats - You may well have just encapsulated the heart of the "let's don't shout" thread :)

"Society deals with gender in a way that, on balance, harms women"

• This is a good-enough recognition of the patriarchy, is it not?

That's a question, btw. I might say "oppresses" but "on balance, harms women" looks like it means the same thing in a less triggering way.

Fair point dittany. You are right. It is real, like capitalism

just not as quantifiable. No one will argue that capitalism doesn't exist but plenty dispute the existence of patriarchy.