do you believe in the patriarchy?

[bejeezusWC]

A poster on another thread said she views feminism as the struggle against patriarchy. That is how I view it too. I believe that is considered the rad fem stance?

Another poster said she didn't believe in patriarchy

I don't geddit

Why/how are women so unequal if not for patriarchal societies? WHO has been oppressing us?

Please tell me what you think, if you don't believe in patriarchy

Beachcomber -

"Could you stop speaking for feminists with patronising strawfeminist phrases like this"

I can't very well engage with people and ideas without saying what I understand them to be. I can resort to lots of direct quotes but it looks a bit legalistic, nit picky and more antagonistic than I intend to be.

But ok, if you insist

You: "'patriarchy' is used to describe the current global status quo in which women have lower status than men."

Me: "the idea of "the patriarchy" as the singular explanation to everything about the relations between men and women, and society's institutions"

You: no one has argued this.

I cannot see the material distinction between 'global status quo' in the status of men and women and 'everything about the relationship between men and women' (are there some bits that are exempt from the influence of the patriarchy?)

Me: "... seems to close down on feminists ability to engage with modern biology, behavioral economics etc.. because it is built an a foundation which sees human beings as not part of nature."

You - this is false

You: "Feminists refuse to engage in bullshit about social constructs being confused with a natural order."

How do you know what is bullshit at the borders between social construct and biological underpinnings if you refuse to engage with it?

I don't think you are stupid. But I don't think anyone can tell bullshit from credible research without engaging with it.

what??? my point was that what you are arguing is making the same mistake as those victorian ideas! you are applying a biological term and process to non biological 'things'. and yes they'll win nobel prizes for theories that support the idea of the status quo being natural and good and some evolved state ffs. who do you think doles out these prizes and grants and accolades???

i don't believe in pinnacles. i mean - i'm actually at a loss of how to respond to you because you are just lying about what i think and say which is baffling and the motivation is disturbing to contemplate.

but hey himalaya i only have a degree in this stuff so you know maybe i'm a bit thick and your selective googling is obviously far more credible

and YES i feel a bit of a twat for bringing my degree into it but you know i spent three years in depth studying the subject matter you are mangling.

and to twist what i've said and attempt to make out i don't understand the basics of something i got a damn first in is just bizarre and offensive to be honest. i'm finding you really rude and disingenuous.

and i think i'm done with this thread.

Studying a topic, allows you to understand it but it doesn't mean the theories you have studied are the only ones that can offer an explanation of the world. They are still arguments and theories. That's the point about studying usually, understanding how much we don't know about these complex topics.

what was your degree subject eclectic?

What does the term pinnacles mean? Not come across it in this context before.

Not sure how that's relevant?

sorry-only just been able to come back to this thread-it is too large and unwieldly to access from my phone!

I need to digest some of the finer points, but I have a question for those that dont 'believe in the patriarchy'-or a few actiually;

1. is it that you agree that society is patriarchal, but just dont think that is to blame for all inequalities between women and men or the abuse and oppression of women?

(BTW I use patriarchal as an adjective and society as the noun)

2. If you think society is not patriarchal-do you think the oppressions/systemic and widespread abuse/ inequalities are all stand alone problems, not inter connected or related to each other?

3. what do you think are the reasons for abuse/oppressions/inequalities, if not patriarchy?

Please can you define patriachy again, just to be clear, as it seems people have different understandings of it.

modern biology, behavioral economics etc etc etcare all very ineresting

but, how is it they come together, the world over, in many different cultures/societies to produce inequalities/ oppression and obuse of women?

Himalaya, how about instead of telling me what my argument is and translating it into something I haven't actually said, you tell me what your argument actually is?

Because apart form the faith/god stuff of earlier I don't really know what your argument is. (Can you summarize it in a couple of sentences like I did with mine?)

And what in the name of arse has credible research got to do with the fact that; violence against women exists, violence against women is global, violence against women is a human rights issue?

I can read all the evopsych in the world and it will change absolutely zero about the above. I can see it with my own eyes, no need to research it.

Feminism is a grass roots movement about protesting against concrete actual physical harm that is being done to women. It isn't about academic discussions/research which attempt to justify the status quo and are rewarded by the status quo with Nobel Prizes (no shit!).

It Is All A Distraction.

Kritiq has an interesting post on one of the other threads about intersectionality.

here is the thread

no one is denying other forms of oppression

but a few people are denying that there is patriarchal oppression

its a bit of a diversion/avoidance IMO

No one is denying that there are elements of male supremacy in the world and that they contribute to the impression of women. What is being argued, is that there are lots of other influences that all contribute to the oppression of not just women but people in general. I think the problem here is what people are calling the patriarchy and whether they believe it is the root of all oppression.

Oppression of women not impression

IYO-what other influences?

Quite a few of the concepts that himalaya has discussed for a start.

Agree bejeezus - its fine to talk about every other kind of oppression imo except about oppression against women.

Im sorry eclectic i dont actually see any 'concepts' that himalaya has discussed...because men have more upper body strength? was that one of hers?

What do you think of the term Kyriarchy?

it raeds more like;
'There is no patriarchy. Women are oppressed...just because that is how it is......'

Ill answer your question eclectic when you have answered mine