Turkey plans to curb abortions

[enimmead]

www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2012/06/20126316302678229.html

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12684150 early TOPs= >80% trans-v ultrasound before AND after...

Ohh, really? I don't respect other women? I don't understand rape and empathise with victims? Erm, why have I just posted a couple of anti-rape comments and got so upset about the rape conviction percentages?

Obviously because I'm an uncompassionate, anti-woman... no wait. Please don't make outrageous assumptions. The medical stuff about ultrasound is from peer reviewed journals and basic medical texts. Not from biased groups with questionable "facts".

And your sarkiness about me "solving" Latin America proves nothing. I claim no genius or power to transform a continent for the better. I made a reasonable comment about my opinion on what it needs, which didn't include any mind-boggling specialist knowledge or wonderfully esoteric nuggets of uncommon sense. If you say that "Africa needs more aid and less corruption" are you being an immodest braggart for thinking you can solve Africa?

Penetration must be sexual for it to be rape? Um...no. Lack of consent makes it rape, regardless of whether the perpetrator is getting any sexual gratification from it, and regardless of whether a penis is used. It's not consent if you have no other choice.

I'm not going to argue against better maternity services, I think that's a great idea, obviously. But do women really have abortions because they're worried about the availability of antenatal care?

I said that greater development (i.e. overall, the UN Millennium goals are a start- NOT just antenatal care!) would allow more women to have children without worrying about them having a terrible quality of life, or even her starving in extreme cases as in many of the villages/ remote settlements far from outside help, and so reduce the abortion toll. I am aware there is a wide range of reasons why women want an abortion.

To say TVUs for an elective abortion are rape is ridiculous. Sorry, I am very strong in my anti-rape (and sexual assault) feelings: I'd love to see a lot done, challenging rape myths and victim blamers everywhere as suggested on the other thread, local police copying the successful Project Sapphire in London, making counselling more available for EVERY woman who needs it, more and better delivered training for professionals who come into contact with victims, international advocacy to get rid of the 70+ countries' laws which state that marital rape is not a crime and so on.

But you think abortion is a legitimate medical procedure and defend doctors who provide it, and now you're accusing doctors who specialise in treating women of being rapists. That is a problem. Tell the women in China who have endured the horror of forced abortion that women who have a "choice" (the word abortion rights-supporting feminists love to use) actually have "NO other choice". They decide to have the abortion, and so they are required to give informed consent to the procedure, is it not fair they should see the unborn life they are about to stop the heart of and hear that heartbeat?

I really do think most women who have abortions strongly believe they have no other choice. It's not something you do lightly, just because you don't feel like being pregnant that day. If that's the case, consent to a TVU can't be freely given.

In answer to your question - no, it's not fair.

Don't feed the derailing troll...

47to31 Please listen to

Different statement, same sentiment.

Actually, that ultrasound law is so INFORMED consent can be provided, as she will have an opportunity to know what the unborn life looks like and hear its heartbeat

Bollocks! It is to make her emotionally attached to the fetus, in the hope she will change her mind. I didn't need to know what an unborn baby looked liked, or to hear it's heartbeat. I just needed it out of me. Thankfully I live in a country/was dealt with by people who believe that I know my own mind. I didn't need scare tactic measures to know that I was doing the right thing.

No war on women?

You know at 4 weeks pg I was still getting neg pg tests. Going via my LMP I was 8 weeks pg before I had confirmed pg results for both of my pregnancies.

I really weep for the women in Turkey. There will be no extra support for them, no extra support once their children are born and back ally abortions will increase.

A very quick google tells me that marital rape has only been illegal since 2005 But rarely are men convicted and the wives are pressured into dropping charges. So really this law would mean that the man can rape their wives until they are pg and the wives can do bugger all about it. Horrible.

Also, of course forced abortions in certain countries are horrible but that doesn't negate the fact that many women do want abortions and for the woman this is their best option.

As a side point abortion is very, very common here and there is no social stigma for having one. Women would often come into work and cheerily say they had had an abortion when asked what she had done on the weekend. It's seen as a form of birth control because it is genuinely believed that abortions are safer and better for you than birth control pills.

The policy of only having a one DC (baring some exceptions) is well known and marriage is looked on as far more than just two people falling in love and spending their lives together. Having a child in that marriage is the goal so having one out of wedlock or with a man you wouldn't marry is just unthinkable.

Attitudes to many things are very different here and the teachings from the gov are strongly entrenched to many.

Sorry about some weird phrasing in my post. I'm behind the wall right now and policy is always a difficult discussion.

comradejing- good to see someone contributing from China to an abortion discussion, remember that something being widely accepted doesn't make it right. This is especially true in women's issues where most societies started out patriarchal with it being "widely accepted" among both sexes that men should rule, as everyone was socialised to believe that. Feminists would never have challenged that and won equality had they gone by what the accepted view was. All the years of strict population control may have made it natural to talk of abortion as just something most women do, but you need to think about the fact that unborn baby is losing its life.

FGM in the Horn of Africa nations for example, >90% in some, accepted but still dead wrong. I first learnt of the practice when Moolaade came out in 2005 and was reading a film review which referred to "female circumcision". The person I was with quickly took exception to that term and substituted "mutilation", described it and from then on I was fully aware of what it involved.

What do you think of the anti-gender discrimination PRENDA bill which failed despite getting a majority (as it required a 2/3 supermajority) in the US House of Representatives? Many opponents were saying that "sex selective foeticide is a problem in China and/or India, but not in the US" despite the fact that it is shown to exist in America and Live Action sting videos expose PP's willingness to carry out such abortions in late second trimester.

I like the idea of marriage as one man and one woman for natural procreation though.

differentnameforthis- have watched the video. A woman who idiotically labels immigration laws "racism", bashes the GOP, and supports abortion so strongly that she gets very upset at people who try to stop the slaughter of the unborn, who she calls "anti-choice", but the baby's right to a whole life of choices goes out the window when it is killed. Not going to change my conviction that unborn babies are persons and deserve the right to life.

I was moved to tears, and nearly left my strict pro-life stance, when reading A Heartbreaking Choice (about 2/3rd trimester TFMR) and affected quite badly by stories of rape victims who found themselves pregnant. Yet my respect for life overcame those feelings, without taking away my sympathy for mothers who think they are doing the right thing by killing a disabled baby where quality of life would be badly impaired.

Actually, that ultrasound law is so INFORMED consent can be provided, as she will have an opportunity to know what the unborn life looks like and hear its heartbeat

Gee, thanks for the guilt trip opportunity and the guilt trip information.

Women aren't stupid.

Feminists would never have challenged that and won equality

I was moved to tears, and nearly left my strict pro-life stance, when reading A Heartbreaking Choice (about 2/3rd trimester TFMR) and affected quite badly by stories of rape victims who found themselves pregnant. Yet my respect for life overcame those feelings, without taking away my sympathy for mothers who think they are doing the right thing by killing a disabled baby where quality of life would be badly impaired.

47to31

You cherrypicked the parts you liked, didn't you! Knew you would do that!

You didn't see her pain when she talked about being raped by the boy she liked (who ignored her after that night) or her pain on discovering she was pregnant, or her confusion on what to do. You didn't see her struggle as she tried to raise the (albeit imaginary) child of rape (not imaginary). You didn't see her horror that no one heard her, or her self blame that she didn't yell loud enough!

That video was about rape, pregnancy & termination as a result of that rape. But it could easily be about any unwanted pregnancy & termination.

I guess I was expecting too much of you, for you to be able to see that!

47to31in7days

If you outlaw abortion you make having an ectopic pregnancy a crime.

Have you ever been to South America?

Have you ever heard of Claudia Pizarro?

Do you know what happens when abortion is illegal? Well it makes a woman's body a crime scene, one that has to be examined for evidence, without the woman's consent.

www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/magazine/09abortion.html?pagewanted=all

47to31 - this is an interesting study. It suggests that ultrasounds and waiting periods don't actually "inform" women seeking abortions because women who get to that stage are confident in their decision. They already know what an abortion does and know they want one. They are not idiots.

Raising a disabled child isn't just a financial commitment. Even if sufficient financial help were given some disabilities require 24/7 care for the rest of the child's life. Not every parent would be able to do that and it takes a huge toll on the rest of the family too. Money doesn't solve everything.

As for the second law, parents faced with a disabled baby that will be a strain on their finances should be given money to help

Strain on finances is one of the least problems of a disabled child and this comment shows a total lack of understanding. All the money in the world does not help when a severely disabled child wants its mother 24/7. Night after sleepless night for years and years and years, the physical effect of lifting, the endless times in hospital, with doctors, the operations, the worry, the stress, the effect on the mother's health, the broken relationships it can lead to......it can turn a mother's life into a car crash. And when you see the life of someone you love dearly mangled in this way it is heart-breaking.

I really think people who have not been through this situation themselves should just SHUT UP.