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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When (and why) did what used to be known as Feminism become labelled Radical Feminism?

293 replies

RulersMakeBadLovers · 30/05/2012 21:43

A very incisive feminist pointed this out to me the other day.

S'all very interesting (MN should have a chin-stroking emoticon)

OP posts:
enimmead · 03/06/2012 15:20

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can do that to other people. And the fact that all those children were killed is absolutely awful.

But the Syrian president is supported by Russia led by Putin (?) so it is allowed to continue. Just like all the other wars have.

Ironically, I'm guessing a lot of proposed solutions will involve more violence such as air strikes or ground forces.

How do you stop violence?

dittany · 03/06/2012 15:27

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WidowWadman · 03/06/2012 15:32

"Glad to hear your balls are intact CM. I'm sure they are very important to you."

So physical attacks against a man carried out by a woman, are ok to be flippant about? Why's that, dittany.

To be honest, the last few pages of this thread just left me puzzled. The ideas about a post-patriarchic world just don't seem to be thought out at all - and the idea that it's only men who are violent, or dominant or competitive just doesn't bear resemblance to reality. It's not misogynist to say out that women can be arseholes too. Just as well as there are nice blokes.

Yes, male power is a root cause for oppression, but reducing people to their sex is not going to solve anything. Saying that you want to end one thing, but actually having no idea what you want to replace it with just seems strange and a bit pointless.

I'd rather stay in the wishy-washy-choicy equality camp, because there's less theory and big words and talking about a post-revolutionary utopia of unknown shape, but more concrete ideas.

enimmead · 03/06/2012 15:38

You want competititiveness and dominance - just watch the Apprentice :)

Do the teams work better as single sex or mixed sex? Or is it just as bad no matter what?

EthelMoorhead · 03/06/2012 15:40

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MiniTheMinx · 03/06/2012 15:41

Yes men of all classes and races hold power of the women of the same race and class as they themselves. Of course, that is well documented and understood. But it's the origins of this that need studying.

While the battle lines have been drawn around widely differing points of view, socialists most often find themselves alone in challenging the assumption that women?s oppression is due, to a greater or lesser extent, to men?s long-standing need to dominate and oppress women. I simply don't think men are biologically driven to oppress women.

The argument of biology is an assumption held both by traditional male chauvinists seeking to prove their right to dominate women (and also a vaguely defined tendency in women to nurture and therefore submit to domination), as well as many feminists seeking to prove much the same thing. The argument is rarely a purely biological one over testosterone levels. Yet, whether stated or implied, assumptions about biology and human nature lurk just beneath the surface of this debate.

In what way does that way of thinking challenge gender stereotypes.

A more rational response is that our means of production and reproduction, the means of exchange and wealth accumulation have shaped not just our thinking, our experiences, the way we live and behave but to some extent even our biology. (trans, men becoming infertile due to environmental issues etc, men becoming more "metro") it has led to women being a class within a class and the most oppressed within every class.

Men of all classes have it better than their female counterparts, the capitalist class have made a bargain with the working class male, that he too should have dominance over the women of his own class. But to suggest that upper middle class women "doth their caps" to working class men is laughable.

thechairmanmeow · 03/06/2012 15:43

your example of male violence is ridiculous dittany, in the middle east men are in charge, and women are little more than possessions, in terms of gender equality they are in the dark ages. so yes, if there is a massacre the likelyhood is that men will be doing it.
bloody mary, elezabeth 1st, boudicca, even margret thatcher was a hard-arse, ...but no!! women are so sweet, not attall capable of violence!!

thank you for your testicular concern, yes were all fine now.

dittany · 03/06/2012 15:46

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RumbleGreen · 03/06/2012 15:47

It would seem to achieve what some want on this thread it will require a complete rebuilding of society from the very foundations.

Something that is highly unlikely to happen without something which would have massive effect on the human population. Either war or some sort of world wide natural disaster. You have to tear down the current building before you can build something else in its place problem is during the building stage things don't always go as planned.

JuliaScurr · 03/06/2012 15:49

this is my problem. Male violence - if it's a choice (I agree), when did they first start and why? And how will the feminist revolution happen? The idea of patriarchy seems largely descriptive not an analysis of the mechanics of how it started, how it works and how to end it. Marxism is good at that but crap on women, though potentially able to adopt the ideas of radical feminism to analyse reproduction with equal vigour as it does production. Oddly enough, it turns out lefty boys male socialists have not pursued this I'm hoping the two things aren't totally incompatable because I think we need both.

LibraDog · 03/06/2012 15:50

In answer to the original question, I think the term Radical Feminism probably came from RadFems themselves in reponse to the emergence of Liberal "choice" feminism in the 1980s with its consumerist, lack of political analysis. Feminism that placed patriarchy at the core of its analysis (i.e. feminism that was "radical" - radical meaning "root" rather then something extreme) needed to be defined as apart from this "new feminism" which many second wave feminists struggled to see as feminist at all, but rather as backlash and a distraction to divert women away from a true feminist analysis. This is how many (most?) RadFems view Liberal Feminism in the present, although many acknowledge that it does bring many young women into feminism who then go on to develop a more radical stance.

dittany · 03/06/2012 15:54

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Takver · 03/06/2012 15:59

"It would seem to achieve what some want on this thread it will require a complete rebuilding of society from the very foundations.
Something that is highly unlikely to happen without something which would have massive effect on the human population. "

As per above, I imagine plenty of people living under feudalism couldn't have imagined a different way of organising society, or - even if they could - couldn't have imagined getting there without some kind of cataclysm.

If we don't imagine utopia, we'll never have a hope of getting there. If we do - well, we may not see it, but who knows what will happen in our children/grandchildren's future.

JuliaScurr · 03/06/2012 16:08

anyway,back to the plot ....
the turn to choice libertarian empowerful burlesque crap coincided with the global domination of neoliberal economics and the dawn of grotesque consumerist individualism. All with the backlash against the evil empire of feminism sex became only a commodity, inevitably so did women

MiniTheMinx · 03/06/2012 16:17

Well said Julia, liberal feminism seems to be about perpetuating individualism. Choice feminism and sex positive feminism seems to be perpetuating male supremacy. (no I won't apologise for thinking this)

WidowWadman · 03/06/2012 16:20

"Well said Julia, liberal feminism seems to be about perpetuating individualism. Choice feminism and sex positive feminism seems to be perpetuating male supremacy. (no I won't apologise for thinking this)"

But how is the removal of choice not oppressive?

MiniTheMinx · 03/06/2012 16:29

I am not proposing that people shouldn't have choices, I would like to see more effective from the ground up democracy Confused

What I am concerned about is the fact that some younger women are playing to the audience. Whilst I think we need to engage with men to raise their consciousness to really overthrow all forms of male supremacy/exploitation equally it's time that the pro-choice arguments in favour of lap dancing and prostitution and porn needs to be seen for what it is. Not because I have a problem with women choosing to do these things but because women don't start from the same vantage point and it isn't women higher up the economic scale that make these choices, why is that? it's obvious that it boils down to class as well as sex. I wonder to what extent some women higher up the socio-economic food chain benefit from their working class sisters being gifted to the patriarchy/capitalist class. My guess is if you really unpicked it and did the research you'll find it.

dittany · 03/06/2012 16:37

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WidowWadman · 03/06/2012 16:45

Do you want women to be free to wear what they want to wear, to do what they want to do, to say what they want to say and to enjoy what they want to enjoy or not?

Please, don't use the "we're just analysing not mandating" cop-out. Just answer with a straight "yes" or "no".

MiniTheMinx · 03/06/2012 16:51

yes, with the one exception, that men do not exploit women for money, that money should not change hands, that women are not commodities to be exchanged, that women are not commodities to be purchased.

I have already said that all men within all classes exploit women, dittany, I fundamentally disagree on how and why that happens.

dittany · 03/06/2012 16:52

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dittany · 03/06/2012 16:53

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dittany · 03/06/2012 16:55

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WidowWadman · 03/06/2012 16:56

Well, of course wearing lip stick is not a feminist choice. The same as it isn't an anti-feminist choice. Sometimes, it's just wearing lip-stick.

As for whether I want feminism to succeed? The brand of feminism you promote gives me nightmares.

I want equality, I'm a liberal. The brand of feminism I subscribe to has been derided by you more than once as not feminist.

dittany · 03/06/2012 16:58

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