Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

Ah right. So what about wombless women, or post menopausal ones? Or those infertile for whatever reason. If someone "passes", it's not tattooed on their forehead that they don't have a womb, either.

Exactly.

Being a woman is a state of being. And we are oppressed for that state of being.

We are not oppressed because we wear dresses or shave our legs. We wear dresses and shave our legs because we are oppressed.

And we are oppressed because we bear children.

MTF trans do not bear children.

So, kim, do you think a woman should act in a certain way? Do you think women should act differently from men?

If so, how? What do you feel women should do that men don't do? What should women not be allowed to do, that men may do?

I do not understand how you can claim that making a distinction between how women act and how men act is in any way 'freedom'. Women have fought for so long to be considered as good as men. Why would you want to get rid of that?

I genuinely don't understand and I can't quite follow where you are coming from, so I don't know if I am even asking the right questions here. But it sounds as if you don't even believe yourself that gender identity is extricable from social constructions of femininity ... so, why not get rid of it entirely?

Ah right. So what about wombless women, or post menopausal ones? Or those infertile for whatever reason.

Women who are infertile or do not have wombs, are discriminated against by society in exactly the same way as women who have wombs or are fertile.

Patriarchy doesn't treat these women better - we all belong to the group who can bear children whether we actually bear children or not.

This is a political issue, an issue of social groups and hierarchy - it is not an issue of individual circumstance or reality.

beachcomber - exactly the point I'm making - mtfs who live as women are facing the exact same prejudices as if they don't talk about their medical history noone can know whether they have a womb or not.

But, WW, don't at least some MtF transsexuals live as males for part of their lives? I thought that generally transsexuals were distinguished from babies whose genitalia are ambiguous, right? So MtF transsexuals will not have faced at all the 'same' prejudices, will they?

"It's superficial - but trans people do want to pass so they do go for what "society expects a women to look like". Can you blame them? "

I'm not really following. Why don't they just be what they are?

"My friend has issues - she is self medding on the internet but she wants to come out. However she is really nervous about how the locals will treat her. She lives in a rough neighbourhood and there are too many stories of assault of trans people. Her ex has stopped her seeing her children as well."

But he's not a she is he, he's a he. I don't blame a woman for protecting her children from the emotional trauma of a father claiming he was a woman.

"Some people just don't like "difference"."

Is it that, or is it just that most people don't subscribe to the idea that biology is meaningless, and that anybody can claim to be whatever sex they want?

I have a friend who transitioned in her teens - so she's lived longer as a woman now than she has ever done in a male identity, so I'd definitely acknowledge she faces the same prejudices and has so for all of her adult life.

I do wonder when people say that they want to be seen as a woman and be 'female' if they really mean all the trappings - that they want to be 'feminine', shave their legs, wear dresses and make-up and be recognised by others as 'female'.

I'm a woman. I don't shave my legs, I don't do makeup I wear trousers out of the house unless it's over 85 degrees and I would rather I could switch off the reaction of the others to me because I'm a woman. I hate the fact that simply walking down a street as a woman means you are judged on your appearance by people in a way that you wouldn't be as a man.

kim, I don't follow at all. If transsexuals agree with radical feminists that men and women should abolish gender and gender roles ...why do they need to call themselves women?

Feminists have spent such a lot of time fighting these stupid ideas about how women 'should' behave - why would anyone who agrees women and men should not be constrained by stereotyped gender roles, want to perpetuate the idea that gender roles exist?

Perhaps Kim - but not for the same reason and not in the same globally institutionalised manner.

I'm not claiming that trans people don't suffer patriarchal discrimination.

WW - um, so, she didn't live as a woman for her whole childhood?

And I would repeat the above post in answer to WidowWadman.

Kim, women and girls are "she" (female) not anybody else.

So why are you calling a man she unless you think he's a woman.

"it's about wanting to be accepted for the person they want to be"

So what exactly is the person they want to be?

Btw, you know kim, you are probably not intending this, but suggesting we 'imagine' what it might be like to resist stereotypical gender roles is a bit strange. This is quite a normal idea, rright? It didn't originate with transsexuals, it's been part of feminism for as far back as I can think. I don't get why you think it's something people need to 'imagine', or why being transsexual is somehow relevant to thinking like that?

I have read your comments kim. I am just very confused by them.

If there are people who don't want to be called 'women', I'm sure that's interesting.

But, if (as I think you're saying?) transsexuals agree exactly with radical feminists, what do you imagine is the issue here? What actually makes these people 'transsexual' as opposed to 'radical feminists'?

So, for goodness' sake, kim, what do to think makes someone a trans person?

"But, if (as I think you're saying?) transsexuals agree exactly with radical feminists, what do you imagine is the issue here? What actually makes these people 'transsexual' as opposed to 'radical feminists'?"

Isn't that a question for the people who want to exclude them?

Kim, I don't think radical feminists have an issue with transpeople who wish to be left alone to be themselves.

We just take issue with transpolitics which attempts to co-opt biological female identity and deny us our right to challenge our biological based oppression.

It is quite important to us - we don't wish that to be to the detriment of anyone else's rights or well being, but we refuse to put ourselves to the back of the queue (again).