Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

Especially at such a young age. Think about all the messages we send out to children in their younger ages.

"pink for a girl, blue for a boy"
"dolls for girls, cars for boys"
"girls can cry for britain, boys don't cry"

The list goes on, and on, and on.

The patriarchal ingraining starts from pregnancy. And it grows, and grows...

Kim, Stars is putting it so well, IMO, that I don't have anything to add to what she is saying.

You might enjoy reading Delusions of Gender though. It has numerous studies that show some of the very small but telling ways in which the Patriarchy reinforces gender "traits."

I can't say why; I suspect it's the same reason I'm happiest with a hammer, or a pen and paper, and debating politics with my dad. If we took away society's expectations of gender, you'd be who you are, in a man's body, and wouldn't think any different of it.

And no, we can't prove it. Because we've lived long enough in the patriarchy to be affected by it. Even if it were abolished tomorrow, there'd be remaining particles tied in with us.

I'll ditto Comrade's suggestion for Delusions of Gender.... Which... Is sitting unread on my bookshelf...

Gawd, I'm an awful feminist. Never finish my reading....

StarsAndBoulevards, those are brilliant, amazing posts. Thank you. I wish I could articulate myself as well as you do :)

Kim after your last post you MUST read Delusions of Gender.

There is lots in there about the so called male and female brain. There's also so much more to it than elc and wearing pink. Do you know, for example, that if you ask a woman to state her gender before sitting a math test she will do worse but if you don't she will do better? Or that if you tell a gender that their gender does better/worse in a certain test then they indeed do perform better/worse.

Amazing book that, frankly, should be part of the UK syllabus.

Sexual identity, I have noooo idea, I'll be honest.

I'd probably say nature, as attraction is hormonal. But I'm also of the belief no one can truly be 100% hetero or homo. But I think that's my creative/dreamer side coming out...

Kim, I think you are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. We will probably never know how much influence nurture has over nature. However, we do know that it does have a strong influence. We also know that stereotypes are harmful and being outside your designated stereotype is punishable in today's society.

Why are you are focussing on whether female and male brains are different (which again we are not ever likely to know definitively) and not focussing on changing society so that any stereotypes are removed and people can be who they want to be on their own body. Then all this talk of different brains largely becomes irrelevant.

IMO those perpetuating different brains between the sexes are heavily invested in keeping the stereotypes alive and well, for whatever reason. Surely as someone who has suffered by not fitting your stereotype you would want to see them removed?

Some of your pupils want to be cage fighters - eek!

Do you think if we somehow got rid of the gender binary that those who are trans would feel the same need to change sex? I suppose that is a difficult question as it is hard to imagine gender not being an issue.

That's what I meant about people who don't conform to gender stereotypes (and get punished for it) being natural allies with feminists who see gender as the problem. For me the radical feminist analysis of gender is far more convincing, more coherent than the idea that gender is some innate quality. The idea of gender as an innate quality conveniently serves to uphold the status quo. You do have to ask whose interests these ideas serve.

Cross-posted - that was in reply to AbigailAdams' post

Sex doesn't reside in the brain, it resides in the whole of our bodies - in our cells, in our physiology, in our horomonal systems, in our gonads, in our secondary sex characteristics.

It simply isn't possible to reduce sex down to the feeling. It's the least accurate predictor of what someone's sex is.

Agree with everything you've said Stars.

it's interesting to note that on MRI scans, men have more areas of the brain that activate during spacial tasks than women, however with a bit of training in spacial tasks, this difference disappears. In my opinion this is how society affects the brain, by encouraging boys to build things south bricks and play with cars etc whereas girls are encouraged to play in more social ways.

"That's what I meant about people who don't conform to gender stereotypes (and get punished for it) being natural allies with feminists who see gender as the problem. For me the radical feminist analysis of gender is far more convincing, more coherent than the idea that gender is some innate quality. The idea of gender as an innate quality conveniently serves to uphold the status quo. You do have to ask whose interests these ideas serve."

The idea I get from the radfem posting on here though is, that instead of wanting to get away from the binary, they insist on reinforcing it - because what else is the insistence on "women born women only" spaces, if not separatism and upholding the status quo.