Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

I'm not theorising anyone's feelings away.
I think that people who are uncomfortable in their own skin should be given as much support as poss to make them feel happier, and that fundamentally society has to change to be more accepting of people with difference.

Assigning is not my term, it is one that seems to be used in the dialogue about these issues, and it seems useful.

WW do you believe that gender is a feeling, and a person's sex is determined by their gender?

You have said that boys who feel like girls are girls, and girls who just feel like people are people. This means that girls who are born female and just going about their business are not female, but a different category, of people? But others will identify them as female and treat them accordingly.

So how is this all to work then?

And I'm talking about the experiences of some people. I'm not saying it's a majority. I'm saying that trying to talk about trans people as though they're a homogenous group who all want the same thing is simplistic. Not all people who would describe themselves as trans want to have full surgery. And why should they???? The problem is with trying to shove people into two boxes. If nature can create people who are xxy and people who are born with both sets of genitalia why are we so keen on trying to make people fit into a 1950s world of feminine = woman and masculine = man.

If a 12 year old girl in pakistan who is due to be married off to an old geezer feels like a person, rather than a female, will that help her?
If she feels like a boy, will that help her either?

No, because when you are born it is decided whether you are male or female and your future is weighted accordingly.

SQ - stop twisting my words.

I'm not twisting your words.

You say that a boy who feels like a girl is a girl.
So what do you call a girl who feels like a person? Without an internal "sense" of their gender either male or female? Just "them"?

I think it is statements like this Kim:

'And I'll say it again - what advantage do you think male privilege has given me in life? Because I am pretty convinced I never had that male privilege - but I acknowledge I did not have female oppression when growing up so maybe that is the advantage.'

If you understand that biological females are discriminated against on the basis of your biology, it would then follow (as demonstrated by the various examples of privilege you have given as analogies) that you have elements of male privilege now as a consequence of biological females being discriminated against.

In much the same way that I have white privilege whether I like it or not.

Is the boy who feels like a girl more female than the girl who feels like a person?

In an attempt to join an all female institution (say a girls' school) should the person who feels more strongly female take priority?

SQ - I said that I am happy to accept a person's definition of themselves.

"And I'll say it again - what advantage do you think male privilege has given me in life? "

Mostly as a teenager I would say.

Not getting wolf whistled at by men in vans
Not going to the local pub and having a random man feel your arse, force your mouth open to snog you, follow you down the road
Not having a man shout at you that you're a "slag" because you crossed the road at a time that was inconvenient for them in their car
Not having to get a cab on a night out because a load of strange men were following you in their car leering at you and generally scaring the crap out of you
Not having people assume you are a bit thick because you have blonde hair
Not having to fend off heavy advances from big much older men and walk that difficult line between getting them to go away without antagonising them
And so on and so on

I am sure that trans have a terrible time but it is a different kind of terrible time.

WW so you think that a boy who says he feels like a girl should have access to all current single sex institutions? And vice versa?

How are you going to impose this in countries like Afghanistan? Or indeed at somewhere like Eton?

This conversation really overlooks the world situation for women and I find that odd.

People understand surely, that if it is the case that all being female is, is a feeling, and a woman is just as likely to have a penis as a vagina, then that erases the need for any female - specific aid globally?

If we're talking biological privilege surely being alive would count. What % of female foetuses are aborted solely because they're female? How many baby girls are killed within hours of their birth because they're female?

• how many are left to starve / die from treatable diseases as females are seen as a burden and a waste of resources?

And obviously less chance of death/injury from childbirth. Particularly important in countries where girls are married off young and end up haying to give birth at 12 when their hips aren't wide enough.

And being able to read and write. Much higher odds of that simply by being born male as again girls are at the back of the queue.

SQ - when someone does a whatabouthemenz they're rightly derided. What you are doing is a whatabouthewomenz which is hardly better.

The idea that just because you experience discrimination in one aspect you can't be privileged in another is as ridiculous as it is arrogant.

But that is not what I am arguing WidowWadman so there is no need to be so rude.

I am a white middle class woman. I have white privilege (the privilege conferred by white supremacy) and class privilege (the privilege conferred by the class system) - what I don't have is male privilege (the privilege conferred by male supremacy/patriarchy). As a woman I am not privileged by patriarchy/male supremacy/the gender binary hierarchy - I am oppressed by it (this is why we have feminism).

why do transgender people want to go to Radfem?

They arent affected by the same issues

kim you dont take advantage of male privelege-it just happens/ it is ingrained/ it goes without saying;

that is the whole point

Because they feel entitled. Sound familiar?