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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Radfem2012 banning trans people

1000 replies

allthegoodnamesweretaken · 26/05/2012 08:53

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

OP posts:
NarkedPuffin · 28/05/2012 13:25

Cis? So it's not enough to be discriminated against becasue I'm a woman I'm now being told by men how I should define myself?

VashtiBunyan · 28/05/2012 13:35

It is not exactly the same as black discrimination. I experience only privilege from being white. I don't experience white discrimination.

I am a biological female. I am discriminated against because of my female biology and in ways that can only be done because I have a female body. A MTF transwoman does not experience that because they are trans.

Nyac · 28/05/2012 14:20

There's a good article at Femonade about how men's and trans entry to feminist political spaces is about surveillance and stopping subversion or the creation of and experience women's collective power:

factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/05/26/moron-surveillance/#comments

It even happened on this thread when for a while it became All About Kim. Radical feminism is all about women, our interests, our politics and what we want, not what XY people want or what they have to say.

Prolesworth · 28/05/2012 14:34

"Cis is not an insult - just a way of differentiating."

That's what it means for you, maybe, but no amount of putting it in bold and in a separate paragraph will make it the universal truth you claim it to be.

For me, 'cis' is an insult. That's what it means for me as a FAAB woman and I reject it.

Nyac · 28/05/2012 14:36

It's not a privilege to be a woman in our society. We're an oppressed class.

It's like saying someone who is black and doesn't identify themselves any other way has privilege over a white person who wants to be black. It makes political analysis meaningless.

VashtiBunyan · 28/05/2012 14:41

This reminds me of all those threads where people say they don't understand why they can't call other people coloured.

It is up to people what they want to be called. The majority of people who are not trans have not said they want to be referred to as cis.

As for cis just meaning somebody isn't trans. That is utterly meaningless unless you say what those words mean. The definition for those words is about internal gender identity which most people have never claimed to have.

If you think that trans and cis are referring to something else other than gender identity, you need to explain what they mean. But there is no point in saying something is a descriptor and then not explaining what it describes.

kim147 · 28/05/2012 15:23

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NarkedPuffin · 28/05/2012 15:25

Yup.

Point?

madwomanintheattic · 28/05/2012 15:35

I don't think it became all about kim at all, just another example of what the fwr board is famous for. Kim joined the thread presumably because she had an opinion and wanted to discuss it, as it is a topic she personally feels involved in. As the only self identified trans in the discussion, people were then seeing her as representative of all trans, and expecting her to explain the motives of trans activists, which she blatantly isn't.

Bit like one person speaking for all women, all born women, all feminists, etc etc. we are all individuals.

I have no issue if a group of radfems want to meet together with other rad fems, and exclude everyone else. Don't care. And I think kim agreed with that - she was adamant about distancing herself from activists who set out to deliberately disrupt rad fem events. Which means the hostility is directed at her as an individual, not as a representative of trans- activism, and that's what sticks in my craw. Why the hostility? She isn't planning on storming the radfem barricades.

Loving the femonade link - nice juxtaposition of anti-trans and anti-not the fems like us. two birds with one stone (well, actually three, of you count the tirade against men, obv. Personally, I would like to hear from some of Andrew's patients for a commentary on his efficacy as a therapist, before I felt able to comment on it, tbh)

VashtiBunyan · 28/05/2012 15:49

I think people on here have shown they are perfectly capable of understanding that Kim is not opposed to biological female only spaces and have acknowledged that she has said there is a difference between MTF transpeople and biological women.

What seems to be the issue is that some posters (including Kim) seem to be avoiding looking at or denying that biological females face areas of oppression and discrimination that is never faced by MTF trans because they do not have a body of a biological female. So MTF have a privilege that biological women do not have. They seem to be only aware of privilege when it pertains to gender and not when it pertains to the physical body.

Which is what attempting to close down female only discussion is all about, isn't it? It is about a long history of telling women that what happens to them when they are pregnant, or wanting to get pregnant but can't do, or when they are giving birth, or when they are breastfeeding, or going through the menopause don't really matter because the default human body is not one with a womb, and people who go about actually having one and making it in any way obvious that they have one are just an inconvenience to everybody else and they should shut up about what happens to their bodies and what is done to their bodies because it really doesn't matter, and on the occasions when somebody decides it does matter, it certainly isn't women who get to define how.

Nyac · 28/05/2012 16:06

It's so odd to call that analysis a "tirade". It's nothing of the sort.

Women are a political group with interests that are very often separate from those of men, and that are completely opposed to those of male supremacy, which seeks to oppress women and maintain our second class status. For women to organise successfully we have to recognise we are a group with a shared set of interests and with the potential for power through collective action. Every time males interfere with that, it's a political act to prevent women organising effectively.

This is a tiny conference with a few hundred people attending at the most. The amount of outrage it has generated is only a reflection on the strength of resistence there is to women pursuing our own interests away from the interference of males.

Like FCM says, other political activists and analysts understand that oppressed groups must organise separately from the oppressor, however when it comes to women we must always have an overseer male in tow.

EthelMoorhead · 28/05/2012 16:13

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Nyac · 28/05/2012 16:38

Do you know what's really depressing about that? Marilyn Frye wrote it in 1983, and people, even feminists, still haven't grasped the concept of separatism in politics. We're still arguing it out even now, as if we still have to decide whether it's valid or not.

Hope you don't mind me quoting from the link Ethel, but I think this is worth including on the thread:

"All-woman groups, meetings, projects seem to be great things for causing controversy and confrontation. Many women are offended by them; many are afraid to be the one to announce the exclusion of men; it is seen as a device whose use needs much elaborate justification. I think this is because conscious and deliberate exclusion of men by women, from anything, is blatant insubordination, and generates in women fear of punishment and reprisal (fear which is often well-justified). Our own timidity and desire to avoid confrontations generally keep us from doing very much in the way of all-woman groups and meetings. But when we do, we invariably run into the male champion who challenges our right to do it. Only a small minority of men go crazy when an event is advertised to be for women only-just one man tried to crash our women-only Rape Speak-Out, and only a few hid under the auditorium seats to try to spy on a women-only meeting at a NOW convention in Philadelphia. But these few are onto something their less rabid compatriots are missing. The woman-only meeting is a fundamental challenge to the structure of' power. It is always the privilege of the master to enter the slave's hut. The slave who decides to exclude the master from her hut is declaring herself not a slave. The exclusion of men from the meeting not only deprives them of certain benefits (which they might survive without); it is a controlling of access, hence an assumption of power. It is not only mean, it is arrogant.

It becomes clearer now why there is always an off-putting aura of negativity about separatism-one which offends the feminine pollyanna in us and smacks of the purely defensive to the political theorist in us. It is this: First: When those who control access have made you totally accessible, your first act of taking control must be denying access, or must have denial of access as one of its aspects. This is not because you are charged up with (unfeminine or politically incorrect) negativity; it is because of the logic of the situation. When we start from a position of total accessibility there must be an aspect of no-saying (which is the beginning of control) in every effective act and strategy, the effective ones being precisely those which shift power, i.e., ones which involve manipulation and control of access. Second: Whether or not one says "no," or withholds or closes out or rejects, on this occasion or that, the capacity and ability to say "no" (with effect) is logically necessary to control. When we are in control of access to ourselves there will be some no-saying, and when we are more accustomed to it, when it is more common, an ordinary part of living, it will not seem so prominent, obvious, or strained... we will not strike ourselves or others as being particularly negative. In this aspect of ourselves and our lives, we will strike ourselves pleasingly as active beings with momentum of our own, with sufficient shape and structure-with sufficient integrity-to generate friction. Our experience of our no-saying will be an aspect of our experience of our definition."

kim147 · 28/05/2012 16:46

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EthelMoorhead · 28/05/2012 16:48

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yakbutter · 28/05/2012 16:50

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MooncupGoddess · 28/05/2012 17:00

Kim - I like your posts, find your perspective very interesting and think you've had a hard time on here. I hope you don't feel driven away (though I'd understand if you did).

Can I ask the people who object to being identified as 'cis' whether they also object to being described as born women, biological women or FAAB women? I still don't understand what is so offensive about being described as cis, but maybe I am just missing something.

TunipTheVegemal · 28/05/2012 17:03

I'm with you on this one Kim.

You don't have to agree about what trans means - and I know I don't agree with the trans people I know in RL - to agree that there is a group of people defined as trans and that there can therefore be an obverse of that, a not-trans, which can be called cis.

As long as I don't have to do anything about that label, that's fine. The problem comes for me when I am told I have to start referring to myself as it in contexts where I do not wish to use that label. I see no reason to claim there is no trans/cis distinction.

madwomanintheattic · 28/05/2012 17:05

Well, it would be, if people were trying to close down all-female discussion. But the only people that are trying to do this are trans activists. No one else gives a damn. Including the vast majority of trans who just want to get on and live their life.

It's weird that radfems have so much contempt for other feminists, but fail to recognise the differences between your run of the mill mtf and a trans activist, and the trans hatred caused by conference barneys spills over. Some of the comments directed towards kim have been pretty rough.

I suspect a fun fem would be equally as unwelcome at radfem 2012. At least the exclusion policies don't actually state that -I'm guessing for political reasons. That one would be harder to argue, given that it's all about being born woman.

VashtiBunyan · 28/05/2012 17:05

I will explain again then mooncupgoddess. I don't consider myself to be cis because I don't have an internal gender identity. It is like somebody giving me an identity that suggests I experience God. I don't experience God or internal gender. That isn't a criticism of anybody else. It simply a statement of my feelings about my identity.

I am happy to have an identity term applied to me that refers to my biological reality because it is an important part of who I am (although it isn't all that I am). I don't ask for everyone else to identify by biology though, because it isn't important to everyone.

madwomanintheattic · 28/05/2012 17:10

Mooncup - because the definition has been applied externally. By an 'other'.

Self definition is ok.

Reclaim it?

I still find it weirdly alarming that any organisation that wants to smash the gender binary gets so tied up in knots building gender barriers. I do understand how it happened, but I think it's a shame.

TunipTheVegemal · 28/05/2012 17:16

I don't think the radfem movement is tied up in knots at all though, I think its argument is very clear and persuasive.

HotheadPaisan · 28/05/2012 17:17

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TunipTheVegemal · 28/05/2012 17:23

Hothead where was the first definition from? It's very disturbing.

yakbutter · 28/05/2012 17:40

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