Radfem2012 banning trans people

[allthegoodnamesweretaken]

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/25/radical-feminism-trans-radfem2012?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

Has anyone seen this? I don't really understand this bigotry against trans gendered people.
If we're trying to make the world a better and equal place through feminism, surely excluding people who also want to do this because of their genitals or the gender they assign themselves is going to make this impossible and is a bit hypocritical?

Beachcomber - your posts on this thread are totally brilliant. WW - I'm not sure how you can argue with the logic. Oh - just realised, you're not

So why would a transsexual who lives as a woman and experiences the same oppression somehow refute the existance of the very oppression she experiences herself?

Your argument just doesn't make any sense.

Also just butting in to applaud Beachcomber's posts. NarkedPuffin summed it up neatly for me in her post at Sat 26-May-12 21:31:20.

MTF trans do not experience the same oppression as biological women.

Because biological women's oppression is founded on the physical biological fact of reality that we are the group which bears children. MTF transpeople do not belong to that group.

Thank you DowagersHump.

beachcomber - if they don't have their medical history tattoed on their forehead, and they choose not to identify as trans, but as women, they will face the same issues, e.g. work place discrimination etc. . It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Thanks Kim, that was exactly the point I was trying to make.

It's not ridiculous. They did not grow up as women which means they don't have the imprint of growing up as a woman. They haven't been pushed into playing with dolls, praised for being quiet and passive, had aggressive tendencies quashed. I could carry on listing but I can't believe that you really think that children are not raised in a highly gender-specific way. Do you honestly?

I would agree that somebody who is not biologically female but who is frequently assumed to be so would experience some of the same prejudice as somebody who was assigned female at birth.

But then my teenage DS, who is not trans, has often been mistaken for a girl and so has experienced some of the same prejudice.

I think there are two different, and sometimes overlapping, clusters of prejudice going on. One is about being biologically female and one is about femininity. Some people will be in both of those groups, and some only one of them.

". They haven't been pushed into playing with dolls, praised for being quiet and passive, had aggressive tendencies quashed. "

I haven't - spent most of my childhood playing with my brother's handed down Lego, and certainly was not expected to be quiet and passive. Am I less of a woman?

This whole argument reminds me of a woman I was a college with who found, through researching her family tree, that she had an ancestor who was black. So she decided that she would identify as black.

Eventually she left the course because she got a hard time at the black students' association meetings and because she felt that no one doing our course had suddenly recognised that she was no longer white, she was black. Except she wasn't.

I know it's not exactly the same but to kim's point earlier - I do know some trans people who I like very much and have a lot of respect for and none of them would dream of trying to crash a radfem conference because they respect women.

Making a big fuss about this is not about respect at all, it's about trying to make a point and shut women up.

I would sort of agree with that Kim, except that I would change the word 'oppression' for discrimination.

I agree that MTF transpeople who pass as women will experience sexism and discrimination.

I agree that transpeople are discriminated against, and that those who do not pass, experience a particular sort of discrimination.

I think I said earlier on the thread that I sympathise with transpeople in this regard.

It doesn't make them women though, nor oppressed for belonging to the biological group which carries and bears children.

Yes, but I don't think it is the same thing as experiencing constantly being treated as a girl. When DS is mistaken for a girl it is generally because we are in a different area from where we live where children of different sexes have far greater differences in gender appearance. He isn't experiencing the same thing as my DD because for her it is constant and will be her whole life.

kim - totally different argument. You're arguing that boys shouldn't be pushed into gender roles. But they are. I disagree with that too.

And WW that you experienced no gender directed play at all throughout your entire childhood, schooling or education. Did you grow up in isolation with no media or contact with the outside world?

At this conference at least one of the speakers was declared male at birth. Should the organisers have banned her form speaking? Is her interaction with the technologies discussed less valid because of her childhood experiences?

I'm frankly apalled at some of the language that is being tossed around blithely on this thread. It has just re-inforced my belief that I want nothing to do with exclusive feminism.

You certainly don't speak for me. Or my experiences of being female.

The sooner we get over our obsession with gender identy the better.

www.flossie.org/?page_id=125

BTW WidowWadman, many MTF trans people are perfectly clear about the fact that they do not experience the same issues as biological women.

That is why they protest against feminists who focus on abortion or pregnancy or childbirth or breast feeding or cervical cancer treatment or any of the myriad of issues which affect biological women. They protest because transwomen are being excluded by such a focus and that is transphobic/transmisognyisitc. They say that women are not a biological group affected by such issues because MTF trans people are women and they are not affected by such issues. Only 'ciswomen' are affected you see, not women as a group.

Oppression based on because you are a member of a group who can bear children and discrimination because you look and sound like a woman. Not really much difference really

I disagree, I think there is a huge difference.

No - it does not makes them women - a point I have allured to throughout this thread.

Yes, you have made this point several times and it is one we agree on.

Ruby, what do you mean by an 'obsession with gender identity?'

Who is obsessed with gender identity?

Apart from people who write on the internet as 'cis-gendered,' I've never actually come across anybody who even claimed to have a gender identity.

Rugy - This thread is about a radical feminism conference. Which is very different from one about women and technology, I'm sure you'll agree. FWIW I wouldn't give a toss who was speaking at the latter.

Kim I used the word 'they' to refer to the specific group of transpeople who protest that I had just cited in my post.

I wasn't using it to refer to all transpeople.