Why "fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin

[Nyac]

article by Julie Bindel in the New Statesman.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/08/fun-feminism-women-feminist

Quote:

"We need to bring back the radical edge to feminism, and do away with any notion that slutwalking, lap dancing, sex working or Burkha-wearing is liberation for women. If men like a particular brand of feminism, it means it is not working. "Fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin along with the Lib Dem party."

Agree with Julie, that it's extremely irritating to see a bunch of interlopers attempting to elbow their way in and co-opt feminism, redefining it to suit patriarchy's needs. I've even seen people who support patriarchal institutions like marriage, BDSM or the sex industry calling themselves radical feminists. There is so much misunderstanding and misinformation about feminism out there that people feel like they can grab what they like without making an actual political commitment or any kind of challenge to the patriarchy.

Really liberal feminism (the old kind, not the sex industry supporting kind) and radical feminism are the only kinds of feminism that have ever effected any kind of positive change for women. They need to be reclaimed and supported, not erased by third wave non-feminist feminism.

She's right about the lib dems too. :D Or maybe they are in the same boat and need some classic liberals to reclaim their party from the Tory party's whipping boys.

It seems like you're trying to lead my answers to a specific outcome Dione.

Is there a comment you want to make about me? If there is please don't.

If you want to know how I became a radical feminist, it was a journey in the sense that it took me a long time to find it, I was floundering around not knowing what politics i was looking for, even though I was already a feminist. Radical feminist arguments are kept very hidden from women. But when I came across it, I became a radical feminist almost literally overnight. The arguments made sense, so why not use them?

So I'd have thought the gateway to radical feminism was hearing unapologetic radical feminist arguments. It was for me. Is that what you meant?

I'm not responsible for anybody else's journey or political awakening. If that's what they are interested in, it's up to them. I'm responsible to myself to make consistent, logical and truthful arguments and to express my opinion when I want to, the same way everybody else does on Mumsnet.

But once again this thread has got personal (about me!) rather than discussing the subject in hand which is people calling themselves feminists calling things like prostitution or poledancing or pornography liberating for women. It's still outrageous.

Nyac leading you to a specific outcome? No. I have no idea what this really means TBH.

Reminding you that your journey started with a single step through a gateway? Yes, that was my intention.

I agree with a lot of that - but I take issue with the 'lapdancing' argument. Mainly because of its alignment with the freedom-restricting anti-sex neocon right wing, old school attitude towards womens' sexuality. And yes, you can add almost anything 'ist' to that list.

That alliance to me says a great deal about why modern feminism is engaging with sex and lapdancing in a different way.

I think modern feminism (no I am not a student of it, this is my opinion) is/should be saying something different from 'equality is our right to lap dance for the patriarchy' its about saying 'screw you don't tell me what to do' - I decide. In the case of lap dancing, that statement is directed as much at 'old school' or 'radical' or 'real' feminists as it is at some duffer in a cardigan and suit and tie who says 'women should stay at home', 'sex is dirty' and 'women know your place'.

Radical feminists as that term seems to be being used on this thread and in the article don't like being told that they don't have the agenda on this. They have my sympathy, and I understand that its hard to be the original warriors who are sidelined, (see Dre's 'the watcher' for this happening to OGs), but my view is that that was what they were fighting for.

I agree that study will add to the understanding of the massive work that has been done, in the same way that my understanding of the massive work done by unions against fascists in the 1930s (including having a pitched battle that was akin to a 16thC civil war battle with the police on the side of the facists) makes me increase my respect for Unions, I don't think that would justify my saying 'you are not a supporter of workers rights unless you battle the police'.

I am tired and can't explain well, so I hope you will see my point rather than say something like 'are you saying feminists are like blackshirts in the 1930s'.. I'm not saying radical feminists are also nazis.. but I am saying that on sex, they are aligning with the right and centre right.

I very rarely venture over here to feminism because I find myself completely out of sync, I'll say that again but this time for a different reason. Back biting, personal attacks, finger pointing is enough really to make this a very unfriendly space. For would be feminists looking in here would be put off.

You've lost me. :)

I don't see how you could remind me of anything given that you weren't there Why would you intend to remind me of anything anyway or think that it was your job to do so? I'm not following.

I know how I became a radical feminist. I haven't forgotten, which is what you seem to be implying.

But we're talking about meeeeeee again. Let's stop it. (once you've explained your intention to remind me about my "journey" of course - let's talk about you)

Most lapdancers or women in the sex industry aren't even thinking about feminism though WB. Certainly not enough to be giving the v's to it and doing a little rebellion through grinding in men's laps.

And most sex postive feminists who promote participation in the sex industry as "feminist" aren't doing the work themselves. They volunteer other women for that.

It does make me wonder BTW why the new statesman seems to be advocating radicalism in feminism.

er.. wrong and wrong.

Women who work in the sex industry are brain dead and stupid??? REally???
They don't know what they want? They are dumb broads?? REally?

Honestly Nyan, go to bed.

We are not aligning ourselves with the right wing fuddy duddys. We are fighting to get to a point when sexuality can be defined on our terms rather than terms that buy into the patriarchy.
Until rape and sexual abuse, as well as judging women as sluts/virgins has vanished, anything to do with sexuality has to be looked at in terms of the patriarchy and how it effects attitudes to sex/sexual behaviour.

I'm sorry but since when does saying that a woman isn't thinking about feminism mean that

a) they are brain dead and stupid
b) don't know what they want
c) are dumb "broads" (did you really use that term?)

That's a huge amount of extrapolation you've got going on there WB and all of it completely incorrect. Women can be intelligent, driven and ambitious and still not think about feminism, even a tiny, tiny bit. Amazing eh? Thinking about feminism implies nothing except a woman is thinking about feminism. And it's true vice versa.

Are you sure it's not you who needs putting to bed? Because you're not managing to make sense.

I see, radical feminism from what I have seen on these boards is name calling, baiting and annoying anyone who doesn't agree. I was interested in getting involved mainly because of the FGM but right now I feel like, because I don't agree with everything, I am feminist lite. And at this point I am thinking that this board is not for me and if feminist groups are like this in RL then I will not be getting involved. Congratulations to those who views are putting people off feminism

fridakahlo - what is this sexuality on your own terms, which is being alluded to again and again?

Sausageeggbacon, anti/non radical feminism from what I have seen on these boards is name calling, baiting and annoying anyone who doesn't agree. In fact, this thread is a case in point. I don't like to post here much anymore because of it, but there aren't dozens of threads devoted to those of us who feel like that. I have never once had my feminist explorations dismissed with personal attacks by radical feminists and I am very new on this journey. I have had my views challenged and my arguments unpicked and I am very grateful for that, hard though it is at the time.

I actual think that most of these ideological differences that drive the feminist-bashing threads as well as the radical vs fun feminism is about libertarian vs collectivist (small l, small c). Never the twain shall meet on that one, I've afraid.

The only name calling on this thread is, as usual, directed at those with a feminist agenda. Stating 'feminism is name calling' over and over again does a vast disservice to those of us who have eyes and can see in black and white that (basically Nyac, seeing as you've all popped out of the woodwork to have a go at her) hasn't called anyone names on this thread.

So boring to read, so tiring to deal with: but then I'm quite sure that's the intention.

Unless someone would like to offer an alternate explanation as to why say, Worried Betty would take Nyac's post and re-write it as 'strippers are dumb broads'?

As for my twopenneth, I agree with Julie Bindel (and I don't always). Prostitution, stripping, lapdancing etc are practices that harm women as a group. It is a mystery to me that they would be anything other than unifying targets for feminists.

The name calling gets very tiresome.

The sex industry is about selling a commodity, it makes a commodity of women and some women whether they intend to or not or argue otherwise, are complicit in this process. This effects all women irrespective of whether they are "a fun feminist" they approve of freedom of choice or liberation. One persons liberation and freedom shouldn't be granted or sought at the expense of another's.

The proliferation of the sex industry and the normalisation of women as tools of the patriarchy, as commodities is about class as well as sex. It is often less educated, less economically equal and classes of disadvantaged women who actually have to/choose to do sex work. It isn't just about women, its about class as well. The patriarchy are clever in having targeted disadvantaged women to both do it's work and perpetuate the myth that buying/selling sex is just like any other industry. Unfortunately for many of us and these women, there are middle class women and educated women that see it as a small loss, insignificant, a trade off with the very thing they are meant to be opposing.

Exactly minimath, most women in the sex industry are in it to pay the bills and support their families (the women Cynthia Payne got to work for her were all young mothers). If they aren't being completely exploited by pimps and other owners.

Sorry Porto, got you mixed up with flatulette.

Getting back to the (actually quite interesting) point of this thread:

I don't think the fact that religious rightists oppose lapdancing etc means that feminists can't oppose lapdancing. My views on the occupation of the Palestinian territories have similarities (but are certainly not identical!) with Islamist views on the subject; that doesn't mean that my views are wrong or I'm an Islamist.

I would argue that the centre right as a whole has no problem with the sex industry - this is the political segment that would argue most strongly that people should be able to do what they want for money, or with their own money, within certain legally defined boundaries. Some of them argue that people should legally be able to sell their kidneys... which raises very similar issues as pornography/prostitution do.

There are some parallels with the slave trade where even now in Nigeria one tribe will not work or live with another because the other tribe sold their ancestors into slavery. It's also a class/racial thing.

One thing that I find interesting is that as the economic and social landscape changes, student grants replaced with loans and the massive hike in tuition fees, more women are becoming economically disadvantaged. It has been the case that women have worked in the sex industry to fund their studies, these women in the past have been from "working class" backgrounds or lower socio/economic status. However with the change to higher education fees/funding it would seem that the class lines are blurring. Women again are being made vulnerable for the purpose of exploitation by the patriarchy. Where some women would lap dance to pay the rent and tuition fees and once having gained their qualifications would escape the sex industry there is it seems to me a greater percentage of women from all classes being "earmarked" and primed through basic economics and media to perceive the sex industry as just another mode of production and consumption where women are products of consumption for profit.

See, that is what I dont understand."Women again are being made vulnerable for the purpose of exploitation by the patriarchy."
Surely men are being made vulnerable too.
And by the patriarchy , if you insist.

Anybody remember that thread a couple of months back where a man came on and started a thread something along the lines of:

'I love lapdancing, me, and all the feminists I know are sex positive and agree with me that lapdancing is brilliant! So ... what's wrong with you lot?'

I think funfem is to feminism as new labour is to socialism - a sellout, basically.

I think the political right especially in the states that also use the bible and the church as a blunt tool to subjugate women. It seems to me again not just about women and sex but about women and class. The church has investments which when traced are linked to the porn industry.

The right wing, seems to think that middle class women should stay home, raise children, get raped by her husband and have no reproductive rights, whilst hubby pays for sex with a prostitute as long as she is from the "lower class" It's rooted in the Madonna?whore complex which seems to me to spring from Christianity itself.