Seeing 60 seconds of someone else's domestic violence situation made me wonder...

[AgentZigzag]

...where the message that it's a violent crime which shouldn't be tolerated, got lost.

I'm presuming this situation was a result of a domestic violence incident, although there could be another explanations to the way I've read between the lines.

I was walking towards the local Spar shop at 1.30 yesterday afternoon with my 2 YO DD, who was walking but saying she was tired. I stopped to put her in her pushchair and could see one of our neighbours who works at the Spar with an 18/19 YO girl talking to a woman on the ground.

The woman on the ground had a wet patch on her trousers, as if she'd sat in a puddle, and I could see her face was red, like really sunburnt from the distance I was at.

As I got closer our neighbour was finishing off talking to the woman, who was now standing, and we walked off from the woman together, leaving the younger woman with her.

When I was up close I could see the red was actually blood, because her face had been beaten to a pulp, literally. She had new bruises, really blue and coming up, with blood streaming down her nose, and I think the wet patch was her wetting herself.

I asked my neighbour if the police had been called, and she said the woman was pissed and when asked about the police said 'what would be the point?'. The neighbour then said she didn't know whether it was her business or not (not in an offhand uncompassionate way, but more questioning her take on the situation IYSWIM), and I said it definitely was judging by the state of her face. I was looking back all the time (a few meters away) and a man was helping her into a house, the neighbour said 'Oh, XXXX (mans name) is taking her in', and the neighbour started answering questions from other people at the Spar, so I walked off.

I can't get the woman's face out of my head, wondering how she's doing and what happened after I left. To know there's a man living close by (these weren't injuries a woman could inflict) who could be capable of that in an afternoon, even though I'm not naive and know they look 'normal', is a horrible reminder of what goes on behind closed doors.

There are two things I keep thinking about -

-What does her not seeing the point of calling the police say? Whether it's because it's happened before and her telling them was useless, or whether she didn't think they could do anything to protect her, both lead to the police not being able to effectively deal with these types of crime.

-Also, why did the neighbour wonder whether she'd be justified in ignoring the crime, weighing up whether it was any of her business? If it were an older person being punched to the extent this woman was she wouldn't have hesitated in calling them. Could the way it happened not being how some people see as a 'typical' DV incident (i.e. at night, inside etc) have skewed the neighbours judgement of what to do and made her question herself?

Sorry if it's long and the point isn't very clear, I was just surprised at my own shock seeing her face and of the significance such a small space of time can have. I know what it feels like to get a thrashing so I've seen it in the mirror, but it seemed worse somehow seeing it on someone else.

'I asked people to call the police, but noone wanted to know. I asked the station master in the ticket office to call the police but he just shrugged his shoulders and said "she's a prostitute". So I called them. '

Why didn't you call them in the first place?

I called them after I asked people to call whilst I was trying to calm down the situation, when noone bothered to call them whilst I was doing so and it was getting far beyond the means of me being able to calm it down rationally and save this woman and it was going into a state of violence I could handle by myself, I called them. That's why.

That was a good thing you did kingbeat.

the police would have acted, whether she was drunk or not. she had been beaten. she will likely be known to the police and they would likely know who the offender was.

someone should have phoned them. a 999 call can be anonymous. i cant believe that people walk on and ignore things like this. im in the police. the attitude that DV is not taken seriously is very old hat.

She called them in the end.

People do what they do. Wrong or right or early or late or not at all. We all have different personalities and backgrounds and inbuilt reactions. There are complex social things that go on "bystander" reaction etc

I don't like this blaming people for not acting. If it's not people's direct problem they can find it hard to act. That is human nature. Even in direct situations people often don't act.

Surely we have all been in situations where we felt that maybe we should call someone and didn't? I have certainly been there, quite a few times. I have also been in situations where the police were called and that was not the right thing to do.

In zigzag's case people were there who seemed to know the woman and have a handle on what was going on so she left it to them. That is a fairy normal reaction, I think.

Well nobody is ever going to step in then, because like I said there's always a reason not to.

The people the woman was with didn't have a handle on it, they didn't think there was any point in calling the police for a woman who a man had violently attacked. If you knew there was a criminal in the vicinity who had committed a crime, wouldn't you call the police on him?

I think people who see stuff like this and do nothing can cope with a little blame. It's still better than having your face smashed to a pulp and realising that nobody is going to help you and that the guy who did it, is being given approval by the people around him witnessing what he did, to carry on as before.

Did the OP call the police in the end. I've read the thread but I didn't see that part.

It is indeed human nature not to act if it is not their direct problem. The OP however, wonders about other people not acting, assuming all sorts of attitudes toward dv, while not doing something herself either. She justifies it with her little DD. Fair enough. The woman tending to the victim might have had those attitudes the OP wants to question, but equally might have had good reasons not to get too much involved like herself, like considering her own safety if the perpetrator was still around.

It's the questioning of others' behaviour when doing nothing different herself is what people are questioning, if that makes sense.

If you think others should have acted differently, then so should you. You find a way to do it, around the corner or afterwards, however. You find a way to do it.

ambulance will often call police if they think its something we should know about - ambulance control are always calling.

if its something happening then and there in front of you call 999.

calling later is of little use - if people have gone when the police get there then there is little that can be done, the victim could have gone, witnesses gone, offender gone. leaves us with sod all. and if its something that is happening there and then then it will be an immediate response, more likelihood of finding those involved.
if you call later, then it will be downgraded in priority- if you call hours later, then its pointless the police/ambulance rocking up with sirens blazing and expecting to find everyone still there.

an immediate response means you have to get there within 15 mins, if someone is being assaulted in front of you then it would always be graded as an immediate.

its worth phoning- dont they do the good samaritan story at school any more? i cant believe the amount of people who wont get involved in any any way, even if its just to make a call.

Agent you can't assume that the injuries "weren't what a woman could inflict" because women can inflict terrible violence.

I know you moved off because of your DD....but I would have called the police.

OP: do you know that the injuries were from DV as opposed to a street mugging or a fight? And do you know that the man who took the injured woman in to a house was/is her partner and the perpetrator of the harm? It's not clear from your post. He might have been the kind stranger taking her inside for a cup of tea while he called the police. He might have been her partner taking her indoors after she'd been mugged by a stranger.

'It's the questioning of others' behaviour when doing nothing different herself is what people are questioning, if that makes sense.'

I do see the cold irony in that.

I've broken down some of the reasons as to why I felt I didn't let the woman down by not stopping, as I said, I know what being repeatedly punched in the face feels like, so the significance of the situation didn't pass me by. I didn't think it wasn't serious - I saw the womans face! No grey areas about it.

I believed it was a man who'd hit her and it hadn't happened that long ago, in the few seconds I had to judge the situation I chose not to have my DD anywhere near a person who could do that.

On my own I would have assessed it differently, I made the choice on behalf of DD (and I don't mean I'm using DD as an excuse for my decision).

or, alternatively, re-reading the OP, she could have fallen, but either way, i think i would have asked and then if appropriate called the police, ambulance, whatever.

if the OP did not see how the injuries were caused then she could have at least called for medical help.

i thought reading the title that it was a definite DV situation, re read and see that it was not clear how she came by the injuries. I wouldnt necessarily assume that it was DV.

What does her not seeing the point of calling the police say? ... Also, why did the neighbour wonder whether she'd be justified in ignoring the crime, weighing up whether it was any of her business?

You had your justifications for walking on by, Agent, and so did she. I'm not going to judge you or your neighbour. I'm an 'interferer' and am well aware that people show a variety of reactions to trouble. But I imagine you might think about why you question someone else's decision to leave the woman to her injuries, but not your own?

If it had been a child - or an old man - instead of a woman, would you have done exactly the same?

I would have stopped actually....I could in no way walk past a bleeding woman who had wet herself and not ask if she needed help. I think thats what you are tormented by Agent and nothing else.

cross-posted with you just now. But what if it had been a child?

I am not judging by the way....I know how scary it is at times being in charge of a little child. But seeing that there was no scary man or woman shouting or threatning, I thnk you needed to have asked the woman if she was ok. (obv not) but you were influenced by the spar woman....and you just went along with the crowd.

'Agent you can't assume that the injuries "weren't what a woman could inflict" because women can inflict terrible violence.'

As I said in the OP, I have made assumptions about the information as it added up at the time, and accept this could be wrong.

The information I'm going on is that I've been violent in my past and have seen other women being violent and what they can inflict, and I've seen the level of violence a man can inflict, the difference between the two is marked IMO. I don't think it was a woman. Again, I might be wrong.

'And do you know that the man who took the injured woman in to a house was/is her partner and the perpetrator of the harm?'

I had this horrible thought last night as well, but going on the reassuring way the neighbour said about the man, it was a kind of 'it's OK because such and such is taking in her', as though she knew him and was reassured the woman would be OK. The neighbour couldn't know 100% he didn't do it, but it felt at the time that she did.

You just can't assume anything about half a situation...it's like walking into a theatre in the middle of a play and trying to work out who is who and what people's intentions are...almost impossible.

I think you're still upset about it...understandably. My friend was in a show last week and a known local Nazi thug came in and began trying to talk to my friends 2 year rold...he was saying "Say N" to him...over and over and my friend was beside herself and very upset but too afraid of this freak....she did shove him away in the end...but she still regrets it...she couldn't have possibly known this mgith happen but it still haunts her. You will get over it...I have seen some horrd things too and they fade. Could you ask around after the woman and see if she's ok?.

SHOP...my friend was in a shop...not a show.

Whatever happened at the very least the woman needed an ambulance and it doesn't sound like she even got that.

I think people can read situations. Telling someone who was actually there and is describing what they saw and how they interpreted it not to make assumptions isn't all that helpful.

There is something you can do now though. Go and see the neighbour who was telling you there was no point in calling the police and find out how the woman got hurt, if she's all right, and whether or not the house that the woman was taken in to was her attackers' house, if she was indeed attacked.

It may not be too late to report what you all saw to the police, or at the very least see if it's possible to get some help to this woman.

I'm not saying that nobody should ever help anyone, nyac, but that it does not make someone a bad person if they do not, in many situations.

OP I don't understand why you thought it was a DV incident. If I saw someone drunk on the street on the floor with blood on them I would assume they had been in a fight with another drunk person. I think we all have our own experiences in life and mine would tell me a different "story" than yours.

I think that going to talk to the neighbour and saying you were worried and finding some more out is a really good idea.

I didn't say anything about not acting making a person a bad person, but it means they made a bad choice.

Putting this down to human nature is incorrect. It's not in human nature to be cowardly any more than it is to do the right thing. The bottom line is that people make choices whatever their nature, and feminism is about making the right choice to stand up for women and against violent men.

This section here, even if Mumsnet thinks it's all about us having to deal with trolls and anti-feminists whilst they talk "about" feminism, rather than ever being able to talk about how to challenge patriarchy, still provides an education. We're taught to turn away, not to do anything, to blend in with the crowd and then to find reasons why it's OK to do that. If you're a feminist however, or someone who wants to stand up for women, you're not going to do those things - you are going to find yourself out on a limb sometimes because you feel that's the right place to be if it's going to help a woman or to help yourself. It's also about showing that help doesn't need to be a huge thing - maybe just an anonymous call for an ambulance. And this section I reckon will provide support for that.

I really hope it won't provide support for people who need to find justifications for why they didn't help and why they did turn away.

I still don't get why the OP is so sure this was a case of domestic violence. She saw a hurt woman, who was then taken into a house by another person, and a third party said that it would be all right. There are various possible explanations including that the woman had been brawling with someone, the woman had been mugged by a random stranger or indeed that the woman had been assaulted by her own partner. The OP doesn't appear to know and the rest of us internet randoms certainly don't.

I don't either SGB....she could have fallen drunk....been in a fight wth herself the way some addicts do....she might have been attacked by her teenage child...her friend...anything!

I think the OP may have assumed this was DV because the woman was a certain type.