Breastfeeding

[PamBeesly]

I am a feminist and I breastfeed, I have heard that breastfeeding isn't feminist and I can't quite understand it, I love feeding my son and its my body. I don't bow to pressure from anyone to feed him any particular way. Can anyone enlighten me as to why its not feminist, I'd love to know so I can see it from a different viewpoint. Thanks in advance :)

I wish we had been told about let-down pain!

Because despite what they say - you can be positioned right, and everything fine, but still at the beginning be swearing violently through your teeth!

I am sorry you had such a terrible time with it. A lot of my friends did too. These were the things that I asked about in antenatal classes to do with BF - and they would just not answer. One actually told me that it was impossible that out of my 5 friends who had BF, all 5 had had problems initially. I really disliked that. I like to know what I'm in for - expect the worst and hope for the best type thing.

There's so much fuss made about mummy-magic and how breastfeeding makes you a better mother.

I find a lot of the assumptions which are borne out of the fact that it's women who get pregnant, have to get the baby out of their body some way or other and can produce food, despite being presented as a feminist, actually something which is used to push women down and keep them in their place as primary carer, chained to the hearth.

I've breastfed my first child for 18 months and have been feeding my second for almost a year now, no idea how long I'll continue, but that was for me more a laziness/convenience/cheapskate thing than a biological imperative.

I just wish there wouldn't be so much pressure be put onto women of how to behave correctly, and especially the whole embracing of what is natural crock is pretty damaging.

I think that both ff and bf Can be feminist, in that it should be the woman's right to choose whichever option she feels most comfortable with in relation to her body and her baby's nutritional requirements. Formula isn't poison. Breastmilk isn't the holy grail.
Women should make a choice based on whats best for them and their baby. Not to ff because their partner wants their breasts all to himself, or because others "don't want to look at that while they are eating/shopping/breathing" or because it makes them feel uncomfortable to have a baby suckle the breast as they have been taught that breasts are for sexual gratification. Likewise they shouldn't choose to bf because the hcps tell them not doing so makes them a bad mother, that the pain is in their head, or any such load of bollocks that minimises women's very valid feelings and difficulties with bf.
There are issues with babies being referred to paeds in hospital For dehydration and significant weight loss in the first 10 days of life. In my role as a bf peer supporter liaising with our local bf specialist team and infant feeding coordinator, I can tell you that overwhelmingly the cause for these readmissions was baby not latching correctly, baby being too sleepy (usually from pethidine in labour or jaundice) failure to feed on demand, new mums listening to their mothers who ff and said babies should feed 4 hourly. Trying to get into a routine. Undiagnosed tongue tie. The list is many and varied, but most of these are caused by lack of knowledge of the mother, bad advice from her su

I think that both ff and bf Can be feminist, in that it should be the woman's right to choose whichever option she feels most comfortable with in relation to her body and her baby's nutritional requirements. Formula isn't poison. Breastmilk isn't the holy grail.
Women should make a choice based on whats best for them and their baby. Not to ff because their partner wants their breasts all to himself, or because others "don't want to look at that while they are eating/shopping/breathing" or because it makes them feel uncomfortable to have a baby suckle the breast as they have been taught that breasts are for sexual gratification. Likewise they shouldn't choose to bf because the hcps tell them not doing so makes them a bad mother, that the pain is in their head, or any such load of bollocks that minimises women's very valid feelings and difficulties with bf.
There are issues with babies being referred to paeds in hospital For dehydration and significant weight loss in the first 10 days of life. In my role as a bf peer supporter liaising with our local bf specialist team and infant feeding coordinator, I can tell you that overwhelmingly the cause for these readmissions was baby not latching correctly, baby being too sleepy (usually from pethidine in labour or jaundice) failure to feed on demand, new mums listening to their mothers who ff and said babies should feed 4 hourly. Trying to get into a routine. Undiagnosed tongue tie. The list is many and varied, but most of these are caused by lack of knowledge of the mother, bad advice from her support network, and that hcps do not have the necessary training and experience of tongue tie, latch issues and how bf works at a physiological level to support women in their bf. very few genuinely that a woman does not have enough milk to
Nourish her baby.

exactly, roger - the right to choose is feminist

I think there is so much perceived pressure from hcps to breastfeed because the language we use to talk about breastfeeding vs formula feeding is all wrong. There are NO benefits to breastfeeding. It is the biological norm. There are risks to using a food which is below the standard of the biological norm.
Breastfeeding is a feminist issue, how many women don't want to breastfeed because breasts are seen as sexual objects?

I agree with 'right-to-choose' being ultimately the best approach to feeding a baby. But the idea of enabling women to work is clearly rooted in feminist thought too. Working full time and expressing milk are pretty incompatible (not impossible). I'm reminded of a bit in the 'politics of breastfeeding' where american feminists have campaigned to NOT get preferential maternity rights (relative to men's) so they are considered on equal employment grounds to men. Many american women go back to work earlier than the 6 months recommended and is also linked to why american bf rates are quite low. What do posters think of this?

I expect there is some research somewhere, definitemaybe. Certainly in 2005 the initiation rate was nearly 80%. Just over 80% understood the health benefits - maybe there is a link there?

LeBFG it's a bit of an imponderable, that one.

I suppose my idea would be that neither model is great.

My idea would be to increase the appreciation of the roles of pregnancy, childbearing, breastfeeding and parenting in society. Get rid of discrimination that women experience surrounding pregnancy and having children. Make it so that families can decide for themselves who does want and how without any disproportionately adverse effect on their family or work lives.

Where I live in Ireland the general sense is that breasts are in the realm of the sexual and therefore not to be 'used' for anything but that and not to be shown in public. There is a strong formula culture here (Ireland produces 20% of the worlds baby formula) and at 6mo only 2% of babies are still BF. Of course this is all down to the choice of the mother its just interesting to see how people have been conditioned into not BFing, and especially not BF a child older than an infant. I BF at work (I'm self employed and work in a shop) and the overwhelming reaction I get from customers when BFing is embarrassment on their part, not mine. I have large breasts and can't BF discreetly (not that I'd be actively trying to hide myself away)
I like vezzie's post about fathers and feeding, food for thought.

Elisabeth Badinter isn't a feminist. A lot of the women promoted as French feminists aren't actually feminists.

I don't know any feminists who say that breastfeeding is anti-feminist. Glad to hear you aren't allowing social pressure to stop you doing what you feel is right Pam.

I'm not sure if it's bad form to mention another thread and I know this baby is very young but this is the kind of thing I meant when I said breastfeeding was a bind:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/1465997-breastfeeding-a-newborn-and-a-planned-nightout

DH was encouraged to socialise a week after the baby was born by my fil to "wet the baby's head". I had just endured ten months of pregnancy and was perfectly fit after a textbook birth but I didn't get an evening to myself for around another five months. Not having a moan, honest I just saw this and thought it was relevant.

Sorry:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/breast_and_bottle_feeding/1465997-breastfeeding-a-newborn-and-a-planned-nightout

nyac How do you decide who is a feminist or not? Her brand of feminism may not resonate with you, but that doesn't mean that she isn't a feminist.

There is nothing wrong with criticising someone's idea, but dismissing her as non-feminist, just because you don't agree with her views on feminism is intellectually lazy.

Thanks nyac

TalHotBlond wet the baby's head? that is also very Irish and I've never seen how its in any way fair for a new father to go out and 'wet the baby's head' when, as a new parent he is a 50% responsibility for the care of that child. Its part of the culture of male self entitlement imo

I think Elisabeth Badinters' version of feminism is relevant here because of her links with Nestlé, however cynical it might seem. Yikes, she calls mothers who breast feed, 'stay at home semi dependent wenches resigned to breast feeding lovable brats on tap' I'm not a stay at home anything but what a way to berate a woman who decides to stay at home. She goes on to say, 'that the once independent go getter woman who wanted to rule the world (or at least let it know she had finally arrived) has now morphed into a mere shadow of herself as her life becomes a regression of self and a bastion for whatever the child needs or aspires to' My cynical self sees this and thinks by saying this to women who may be influenced by her she is cementing her billionaire status.

It was the reactions to the op that got me too. "Oh, well don't go" and "you won't want to/ be able to leave the baby". Just seemed as though she was being guilted into staying home breastfeeding as there was no way for her to say "Actually I fancy a night off, having some adult time with my friends after being pregnant and bf for months" without looking like a bad mother which is bollocks IMO. Who wants to take their baby on a night out? Breastfeeding is restrictive. Possibly not to everyone but to young (ish) women like me who want to retain a social life with non-parents and some independence of the home it definitely can be.

Someone who promotes anti-woman views isn't a feminist whatever they claim WidowWadman. Accepting someone at face value as a feminist just because they claim to be one is what is intellectually lazy. Try doing some research. You could start here:

sisyphe.org/spip.php?article720

I'm not sure the OP in the thread you linked to, TalHotBlond, was being guilted into missing out. They were giving her the reality of BF. IMO+E, BF is a bind. Many of my friends who were ff from birth went out in the weeks following birth - other friends who bf and myself, stayed in. In my case, I felt I was pinned to the sofa for the first three months. I do believe that ff is liberating to womenkind. It does give women the choice to work and socialise from very early on - and giving women the choice to do so surely sits in the camp of female emancipation?

The other posts about when is a feminist not a feminist interests me. Clearly there are flavours of feminists in different parts of the world. It just struck me as being surprising that feminists campaigning in the name of female equality results in such different political outcomes in different countries.

I actually identify with a lot of what Badinter says in the Huffington article...I find the two extremes, work-a-holic, be-like-a-man philosophy on the one hand and child-worship, eliminate-self-interests on the other, are both unsatisfying. But then, I don't read much feminist lit TBH

nyac - I'm not sure whether a polemic against someone is really a good starting point to do some "research".

That isn't a polemic. It's a critique and analysis of her work and statements she's made.

I don't think there's any point in continuing this conversation. You feel free to promote anti-feminists as feminists if that's what suits you. You can obviously do whatever you like. I won't be following such an ill-considered lead however.

Nyac - I recommend you google the word "confirmation bias". But you're right, it's not worth continuing the discussion with you.

Yup, I think that's probably an accurate description of your position WW. Good that you have that kind of insight into your views.