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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

What kind of fucking reaction is this ?

80 replies

Mosman · 04/05/2012 08:23

A guy at work has been systematically bullying and harassing me since I started in the company 10 months ago.
Before I joined he did the same to a lady we will call L
Before she joined it was a young graduate called A

So I've finally had the balls to stand up to him, raised the matter with our employer and the reaction of L who could help me ensure this never happens to anyone else ? He won't loose his job over this will he, he's got a family ?

WTF
Has anyone come across this before ? I am fucking furious with her now as well as him.

OP posts:
RoxyRobin · 04/05/2012 08:58

L may not wish to instigate a complaint, but as a colleague who has worked with the man concerned she will no doubt be questioned by HR about her experience of him. I don't suppose she will care to lie outright so the facts of the matter are likely to emerge then.

Original poster
Mosman · 04/05/2012 09:25

True but ti was the reaction woman to woman that really took me by surprise. He's been a bastard but we don't want to rock the boat for the poor man with a family ? What about our families ?

OP posts:
BasilEatsFoulEggs · 04/05/2012 09:31

Mosman, women are socialised to care more about what happens to men than about what happens to women, so L has probably been socialised to worry about his job and family more than you or even herself. Also, we are taught that we are responsible for men's behaviour and men's welfare, so she is taking on that responsbility.

This is true even of rape victims; I remember a friend telling me that when she was raped, when she fleetingly thought of reporting it to the police, her instant panic response was how awful it would be for him to be accused of being a rapist and how dreadful a person she would be if she did that to her.

Don't be too hard on her. She's obviously young and hasn't realised how deep-seated her social conditioning is.

You could talk to her to point out that any consequence for him and his family, is not her fault or your's; it is his. Ask her how she would advise a friend at another company, who was going through the same thing. Would she advise her friend, that the life and welfare of the man who was harrassing her, was more important than that of her freind? Or would she think that her friend was entitled to be in the workplace without being harrassed by someone who hated her just because she was female?

BasilEatsFoulEggs · 04/05/2012 09:33

if she did that to him, sorry

BasilEatsFoulEggs · 04/05/2012 09:34

"What about our families"

Yes, quite.

Women simply aren't conditioned to put their own needs first.

Sanjeev · 04/05/2012 09:42

Some people just shy away from conflict, regardless of whether they are male or female. I don't think you can condemn the whole of the female population from the reaction of L alone. After all, Mosman has managed to overcome her 'social conditioning'.

Original poster
Mosman · 04/05/2012 09:44

She's not young she's in her 40's with two daughters of her own.

OP posts:
BasilEatsFoulEggs · 04/05/2012 09:48

Oh sorry Mosman, I was assuming she was a young graduate, I misunderstood.

Well, a lot of silly young women become silly middle aged women and afterwards, become silly old women. Grin

Sanjeev could you please try not to make silly remarks to me.

So Mosman, do you think she'd be amenable to talking about how your families matter as much as his family, and that unlike him, you two haven't actually done anythign wrong which might endanger the welfare of your families, but he has, and that he is responsible for any consequences that befall him as a result of his actions, you two are not responsible for the consequences of his actions?

charitygirl · 04/05/2012 09:48

You think Basil was 'condemning the female population' with her comment Sanjeev? You haven't got any brighter have you? Analysis fail.

OP - I agree with Basil's reading. A very frustrating situation for you.

GrimmaTheNome · 04/05/2012 09:49

Don't be too hard on L. Maybe she's sorrier for the woman married to this arsehole than she is for herself and for you.

However, pragmatically its unlikely he'll lose his job, he might be reprimanded and given a warning. Its then totally up to him whether he carries on his unacceptable behaviour or not. I did hear of one case of someone who did lose his job for sexual harrassment but he was actually the HR manager so was presumably held to a higher standard than is usual.

So, tell her this, make her realise its his responsibility to behave professionally.

RoxyRobin · 04/05/2012 09:54

Tbh, I shouldn't make any attempt to point out the errors of her thinking in this case. She may end up regarding you as an aggressor, seeing herself as being between a rock and a hard place.

People can be disappointing, but ultimately you can only rely on yourself in the workplace. You can only hope she will give an honest account if called upon to do so.

DirtyMartini · 04/05/2012 09:55

If she is a victim of bullying (and you said yourself it took a while for you to stand up to him), you can't really blame her if she doesn't happen to feel ready or willing to face the situation at exactly the same moment that you do. Maybe it was just something to say, a way of deflecting the issue.

I mean OK, maybe she is just "silly", but you know ... maybe not. For all we know she could have a history of being bullied/abused and not being believed.

Whatever her real reasons for not wanting to pursue it, surely you sort of have to feel your frustration, then let it go and move on and pursue your complaint without her involvement. Maybe once things are in motion, she will find it within herself to take a more active role?

hattifattner · 04/05/2012 09:55

interesting basil, I thought the same yesterday over the flasher thread (teenaged boy with trousers and pants around his ancles, in childrens playpark....so many posters said it was a harmless teenager prank, and they wouldnt want it to ruin his life by reporting him to police because (shock!) he might end up on the sex offenders register!. Teen in question was 17/18, not some flighty 13yo.)

hattifattner · 04/05/2012 09:56

ankles obviously, not ancles.

messyisthenewtidy · 04/05/2012 10:16

It's because we have all this "Man is the breadwinner/protector/provider, Man is just earning an honest wage for his family" bollocks shoved down our throats all the time.

DirtyMartini · 04/05/2012 10:23

Mosman, what did you actually say to her when she asked you that? How did the conversation wind up?

BasilEatsFoulEggs · 04/05/2012 10:24

Actually yes that's true Messy.

This woman may be one of those lucky ones who if she lost her job, it would be inconvenient and uncomfortable for her family, but it wouldn't be a complete disaster because her DH's wage would just about stretch to enable them to continue to function financially.

Whereas she assumes that his wage is the main one for his family.

And it's her responsibilty to ensure he doesn't lose it.

Not his.

Hmm
TheSmallClanger · 04/05/2012 10:35

Not surprising at all. When I was finally able to report a man who had been stalking me at work for ages, his female supervisor rang me up and tried to guilt-trip me into dropping the accusation.

I sometimes think there's a bit of denial going on. Many, many women have been harrassed at work in various ways, and I think some, especially older ones, find it uncomfortable to support other women. It's partly due to the reasons stated in other posts above, but I think there's an element of bad feeling because they themselves have never challenged that kind of behaviour. Sometimes it's because they were unable, and sometimes it's because they decided it wasn't worth the bother. Either way, there can be a bit of resentment there.

ifeelloved · 04/05/2012 10:52

Sorry I totally disagree with the statement that women are socialised to care more about what happens to men than women.

That may be true for some people but not all. I am a woman and I do not care more about dh's needs than mine! And none of my female friends think that way either.

This could be because I watched my mum tiptoe round my dad and could see it for the bullshit it was!

Op, I think you have to continue with your complaint, don't let him bully you, he (and your employers) need to know that his behaviour is unacceptable and I agree it's very disappointing that your female colleague might not back you up. I would also be furious with a comment like that.

BasilEatsFoulEggs · 04/05/2012 11:07

ifeelloved, saying women are trained to care more about men's needs than those of women, doesn't mean that every woman everywhere is efficiently socialised to feel that. Wink As a general cultural phenomenon though, i think it is true, there is plenty of literture out there about it

TheSmallClanger that's a really good point. Someone else complaining about being victimised, may well trigger really negative feelings that take someone else back to how they felt when it was happening to them and they just don't want to go there because they can't deal with it emotionally; or they have dealt with it and feel that other women should just deal with it the way they did, like those women who resent younger women having proper decent maternity rights "because in my day, you just had to get on with it and younger women don't know they're born now, they have far too many rights, we managed it so why can't they"? - lots of people like pulling the ladder up behind them and making sure that the people who come after them, don't have it any easier than they did, because it then protects their spot as a member of an elite who had to fight really hard to get there.

ifeelloved · 04/05/2012 11:22

Fair enough basil, but I object to sweeping generalisations and a blanket statement saying that women are socialised or trained to......(whatever!) gets my back up. That is not my experience or that of my social group

BasilEatsFoulEggs · 04/05/2012 11:26

Well you're very lucky to have had that experience. Smile

ifeelloved · 04/05/2012 11:31

I can't believe I'm that unusual!

BasilEatsFoulEggs · 04/05/2012 11:38

Dunno. Just look at mumsnet threads. My experience is that men's lives and concerns are prioritised over that of women and that the women are expected to subsume their needs in a way men aren't. But I don't know how representative or extreme my experience is either.

messyisthenewtidy · 04/05/2012 11:40

ifeelloved - given your personal background where your mum tiptoed around your dad you have experienced the phenomena we've talked about and you've made a conscious decision to not let that happen to you.

I'd say it's a case of that's how things used to be and we're now moving away from that, but it takes time and attitudes die hard (and often experience mini-revivals). I feel the same as you, having had a DM who always did and still does put everyone else's needs before her own - God love her! I would most definitely classify myself as quite selfish now - the only problem is I continue to feel somewhat guilty about it!

Incidentally Mona Lisa Smile is a great movie to see how much women were trained to put men's needs before their own. So glad I didn't live then...

Sorry, OP, I realise that was a complete tangent!