Mixed sex dc sharing a room?

[TeddyBare]

This isn't exactly a thread about a thread, but another thread got me thinking about this. Sorry if that's not allowed. I'm not sure why I feel like this is a feminist issue and I'm really struggling to articulate it to myself so I'm hoping for some insight from another perspective.

I feel like there is something profoundly unfair about expecting post-puberty girls to share a room with their brother, even if he is younger.

I think young dc (younger than 7 or so) might benefit from having a shared bedroom with an opposite sex sibling if the parents are careful to avoid gender stereotyping them. In that situation I think it might help them to feel entitled to play with the "wrong" gender's toys etc and it means they wouldn't have to justify it to friends before they are articulate enough to do so. I think it might also help them to share their interests with each other more and therefore realise that they're not really that gender specific.

However I think that it is necessary to split them up before either of them reaches puberty. I don't think there is anything wrong with same-sex dc sharing a room though, even if one is prepubescent and the other is older. I'm not sure if this is me playing into some kind of idea that girls are only "normal" until they reach puberty and then they become so different and alien that they must be hidden. I'm also concerned that it might be that I am subconsciously supporting the idea that girls need to have privacy in order to "prepare" themselves for boys, as if interaction with boys should be a "presentation" of themselves rather than normal everyday experiences. Despite these misgivings I really feel like it's very unfair for a parent to force their teenage dd to share a room with her brother. I think it's showing a lack of respect for her dignity and her boundaries as she develops, and I think this lack of respect for women's boundaries is difficult to cope with as a teenager. It is something which happens a lot outside of the home, and I feel like home should be like a haven where teenage girls don't have to defend their boundaries to privacy all the time. I have no issues at all about parents deciding lots of things for teenagers, but I think by 11 or 12, a girl should be encouraged to be making up her own mind about what she feels comfortable with, and that the parents need to facilitate this. I think most of the time a 12 year old girl would not choose to share a bedroom with her 10 year old brother all the time. And I don't think simply getting changed in the bathroom (as was suggested on the thread in question) resolves that.

Sorry this is waffle. I think there is a point in there somewhere but I just can't articulate it.

I don't think that! I was trying to explain that I'm concerned that my initial response comes from some kind of subconsciously hidden sexist agenda, because I feel quite strongly that girls shouldn't have to share with boys but I can't really explain why. I don't think it has anything to do with fluids on bedsheets though.

No. That's sort of the problem! Did you read my op?

I think it's because girls are developing boundaries about what they feel comfortable with at that age. I mean in relation to not needing to do or say something to attract boys, or telling boyfriends not to touch them, or that it's ok to feel upset and act on that upset if a stranger makes an inappropriate comment. I think developing healthy boundaries is much harder if your parents aren't supportive or the "right" to make boundaries. By that I mean that the parents have to respect that women are entitled to boundaries and that that is a right that develops from girls being able to set their own boundaries about privacy etc. Therefore parents need to respect that their dd is going to choose for herself what behaviour she finds acceptable. I think it's quite possible, even probable, that teenage girls will want to have privacy from boys, including their brothers, at some point. If the parents can't or won't facilitate that then I think it undermines their dds ability to get herself out of situations where she feels intruded upon. I don't like the answer to a girl who says "I need privacy" to be "no you don't". And I think that get-away-response is one which needs to be protected, because otherwise they might be in danger of being pushed into doing more than they're ok with in other situations. I also think it's much harder to re-develop trust in your own instinct, and many women push their feelings of being uncomfortable away because they don't have any "proof" to justify feeling unsafe, until it's too late.

Does that make and sense at all?

Do you feel that it is OK or not OK for a post-puberty boy to share a room with a female sibling, even if younger?

For me it goes both ways - when children reach puberty whether male or female they tend to want more privacy and if possible it is best to accomodate that.

How is sharing a room with a younger brother different from sharing with a younger sister?
If your argument is privacy and boundaries,does that not apply to sharing with any younger sibling?
I am coming here from the standpoint of having shared a room my entire at home life (till early 20'son and off) with my DSis,in a room which also contained my grandmother's wardrobe. She lived with us,so the point is that she was in and out getting stuff!
Privacy and boundaries were in short supply there,but I don't think that impacted on our ability to set boundaries in other areas.

MrsM, Do you mean that wanting to have boundaries is anti-feminist? If so, why? I don't really follow. What makes you think that sharing a bedroom brings a sibling relationship so much closer than it would be in different rooms? And why is that increase in closeness worth more than privacy?

Sardine, I've thought about that less because I thought of this issue in the context of another thread, where the dd is older. I do think it works both ways though. When I think about it purely theoretically, I feel like there might be less "urgency" about teaching a ds that he has a right to make his own boundaries and have them respected, because there isn't a message from society to the contrary which you need to fight against, and there is a comparably lower chance of him being in a situation where he would need to rely on that self-defence-sense to get out before it gets dangerous. That said, I still do spend as much time talking about boundaries to ds and I do to dd, so I perhaps don't act on this theory.

well firstly i have a 6 year old boy who says he doesn't want to share with his 2 year old brother. i think if you ask any siblings of any gender whether they want to share or have tehir own room then they will say they want their own room. and i think that is a normal want because siblings (of either gender) borrow things without asking, pry into things you dont want them to, tell mum and dad things you dont want them to know, mess up your thinsg and dont tidy up their own so your part fo teh room still looks messy, and generally get on your nerves in teh normal way siblings do so it is natural that a tennage girl would wnat a room of her own jsut teh same as a 6 year old boy will want a room of his own.

secondly i think if you are raising your children (both genders) to have respect for each other's right to privacy as a person as opposed to a girl needing more privacy than a boy, then you are on the right track. each family member has a right to privacy and all family members are taught to respect a request for privacy for no otehr reaosn than tehy have been asked to, instead of because 'she is a girl and they need more privacy'. we all need privacy for many different reasons and we all should be taught that we have the right to ask for it and for it to be respected.

I'd agree with all of that,MrsMicawber.
It is still possible to teach the importance of boundaries and respect for others,maybe easier in some ways than if all the important stuff is segregrated. Privacy is harder,but in a family home that is hard for everyone,not sure what the answer to that is,as surely most families where siblings share are doing it because they don't have the rooms for sibs not to share?

Pride, sorry I missed your first post. I agree that in the ideal world dc need privacy from same sex siblings as well as opposite sex siblings. However that sometimes isn't possible, and I think if sharing is necessary then it shouldn't be between opposite sex siblings.

I'm struggling to express why I think it's more important to have privacy from brothers than from sisters, because it's a quite a deep opinion which I've always just accepted as fact and never bothered to inspect before. I think it could also be based on personal experiences which can't really be extrapolated onto the typical family. But basically, I believe this for a variety of reasons. The one specifically in relation to building healthy boundaries has a lot to do with societal pressures. Teenage girls are facing a societal pressure to believe that boys are entitled to them, and that they should be available to boys either as sex objects or as a source of comfort or as anything else. This is a pressure which doesn't seem to explicitly exist in the other direction. So in that respect I think there is an element of teaching girls to have boundaries against boys, when we teach them that no matter what society might suggest, they do not have to allow or support boys doing things they don't like.

So I suppose in part you undermine the message of "you do not have to let boys make you feel uncomfortable" when you add "expect your brother" onto the end of it. Even if the brother is only poking around in the underwear draw to find something hidden there, and the invasion of privacy is not really of a sexual nature, it's still expecting a girl to accept an invasion of privacy from a boy, and I think that's a dangerous thing to normalise or set a precedent for because a typical invasion of a woman's privacy by a man will be in some way sexual, whereas a typical invasion of a woman's privacy by another woman is less likely to be sexual.

Mrs C, I'm not sure I agree that it is anti-feminist to differentiate on grounds of gender. Although dd might inherently have exactly the same needs as a ds, the way societal pressures influences them both will mean that they will have formed different needs. I don't think it's helpful to not engage with those different needs because they are caused by societal pressures and not by "legitimate" sources.

I can see that it could be the case that dss who grow up close to their female family members respect women as individuals more, but I think that depends a lot on the set up of the family. If the mother does all of the caring and the sisters are treated as secondary then even if they are close those ideas will be internalised. I'm not sure that sharing a room is the significant factor here. Or that the benefit of men respecting women is that valuable if the way it is taught as a side-effect teaches girls to accept that they can't set boundaries which need to be respected.

I'm very slow at replying.

IamBooyhoo, There is a big difference between having a sibling who invades your privacy by poking through your stuff and annoying you and messing things up, and feeling invaded because of that, and feeling invaded because of sharing with an opposite sex sibling, even if they aren't doing all of the other annoying stuff. I'm not sure that all girls would feel invaded simply by not having privacy from a brother, but some would. And those few are then having their right to create their own personal boundaries systematically undermined by the set up their parents chose to put them in. I don't think it's healthy for those dds, even if there aren't many of them statistically.
I don't think girls do need more privacy than boys, and I don't think I've said anywhere that they do, so I don't think this would be a case of saying that.

"I'm not sure that all girls would feel invaded simply by not having privacy from a brother, but some would. And those few are then having their right to create their own personal boundaries systematically undermined by the set up their parents chose to put them in. I don't think it's healthy for those dds, even if there aren't many of them statistically. "

surely that works teh other way round aswell though? and also between girl siblings or boy siblings?

also i'm not sure any parent i know would chose to have teen siblings sharing if they didn't have to. teens are explosive even without the added pressure cooker of sharing a bedroom and any parents i know that can separate them, do so. it isn't alwasy possible though.

Hmm

I must admit that the thought of a female relative going through my knicker drawer to look for something causes me less discomfort than the idea of a male relative going through it.

So what does that mean. Um,.

I think it's possible to accept there are things women are more comfortable doing in front of each other (eg be semi or even naked in front of strangers at the gym or getting changed in front of a sibling) without suggesting this is segregation / purdah.

If this is a thread about the thread I think it is - I also think there are differences between a child / teen's usual bedroom / space, and eg sleeping arrangements with a NRP, which perhaps is one night a week.

So you are saying that the girl needs to work out for herself how to deal with boundaries, but that in the case of the brother it is solely the parents who are laying the boundaries? Surely, if she can deal with her brother and set boundaries with him this will make her better, not worse, equipped to deal with setting boundaries to other males?

Also, you seem to think that the parents are "making" them share a room, but I am pretty sure in 99% of the cases a simple lack of space is to blame for it.

Joise, Different thread. This is a long term living arrangement. The op has a dd and a ds currently sharing a room, and is considering 1 or 2 more despite living in a 2 bed house and not having any options to extend or move for the next 10 or more years. With 3 or 4 in the room it would be impossible for them to divide the room into 2 when the dc grow up, so they would be living in a mixed bedroom indefinitely.

MeeWhoo What I was trying to express was that I think there will be some dds who feel like their boundaries are being overstepped simply by not being able to have anything which is not inspected or interfered with by at least one guy. I know it would have bothered me a lot more to share a room with my brother than my sister, because I don't feel like I need as much privacy from other women. If that girl feels like she is being constantly invaded by a guy and has to simply accept that she is not entitled to shutting men out of areas of her life which she doesn't want to share, then I think it is difficult to build proper boundaries later. If you're used to "no I don't want that / I don't like that / that's none of your business" being answered with "tolerate it" then I think it's easy to internalise the idea that men are entitled to overstep women's boundaries and do or say things which make them uncomfortable. I don't think you learn how to build healthy boundaries by having them systematically overstepped and not supported by your parents. Of course this could equally occur in the opposite direction or between same sex siblings, but I think given the messages from the media that women should tolerate what men want, it is more likely to be that dds are going to be effected than dss.
Even if it caused by a lack of space, I think the parents are in a better position to come up with a solution like dividing the room or putting one dc downstairs or something. I think there are very few families who have so little space that it would be totally impossible to have a boys' room and a girls' room, it just depends how much you prioritise having a sitting room or dining room, which is a parent decision not a dc decision.

What an insensitive thread.

Have you any idea how overcrowded thousands of people are?

so are you saying peoples ability to have more than 1 child should be based o whether they can afford a house with a separate bedroom??

Or maybe the boys should sleep on the living room floor - why give them a bed.

Or perhaps those who cant afford enough rooms should go through some sort of genetic selection process, ensuring they only have subsequent children of the same sex as DC1??

I think there are very few families who have so little space that it would be totally impossible to have a boys' room and a girls' room Tell that to people in one or 2 bedroom flats or in hostels.

What an absurdly niaive statement.

it just depends how much you prioritise having a sitting room or dining room

So are you suggesting no "family space"??

Barry, do you also think the "what's for dinner" threads are insensitive because many people don't have food? And is the whole DIY topic insensitive because some people don't have anywhere to live?

Time to change, I think the impact of a future dc on current dc, and considerations about what you can realistically expect to provide for future dc, is definitely something people should consider before planning to have more dc. Of course things don't always work to plan, and then you just have to make do, but not even thinking about it if you are planning would be mighty odd. And yes I do think that means not having more dc than you can afford to care for, and I don't think eventually having a house full of teenagers who don't have any privacy at all is a plan. For the record, I don't think gender selection is a solution either if you mean that seriously.
I think a more typical solution to not having enough space would be the parents sleeping downstairs. I know families where that happens and it works for them, and they sleep on a sofa-bed. "family space" can be in a room which someone sleeps in at night, so it is perfectly possible to make that work in a 2 bed flat without needing to have mixed-sex sleeping arrangements.

no of course its not a serious suggestion, but it is about as sensible as the idea you are putting forward.

You know, if first DC is a boy and parents cant afford another room, then they should make sure they only have boys, ditto to if first DC is a girl, they should make sure only girl children are concieved or brought to term.

Perhaps abortion should be available for wrong sex children, to save them the future torture of having to share a room with an opposite sex sibling, or the wrong sex child could be abandoned by the road side.

Maybe then, if the above is offensive, people should limit themselves to 1 child?

Isnt there a country that already moots these sorts of suggestion? That great Chinese democracy.

I think a more typical solution to not having enough space would be the parents sleeping downstairs.

What about those family where there is no downstairs?? Should teenagers be sent to their rooms at 9.30 in the night so that parents can sleep?? What about shift workers?? How can they be accomodated.

I cant decide if you are being deliberately stirring, or if you are just totally oblivious to the financial realities of life for some people.

This isnt a feminist arguement its elitism at its best - and FWIW - many teenagers would object to sitting on a sofa that is being used as a marital bed, teenagers can be a bit funny like that.

Couple of anecdotes - I shared for a while when I was about 16 with my then 9 year old brother. (There were 5 of us, and we did a lot of musical rooms, I've shared with all my siblings at some point. Worst one was sharing with my 7-years-younger sister!)

It was absolutely fine, but he was a great kid, and it was short term, maybe a year until I left home.

And WRT parents sleeping downstairs - I have a 3 bed house, but for a while when DS1's ASD was impacting heavily on the whole family, he needed his own cell room, so the kids ended up with a room each for a while! I slept in the living room, it was a nightmare. The boys share now.

DD really seems to need her own space already, at 8, but I think that's partly because when they stay at their Dad's, the three of them share.

Most councils, I believe, have rules WRT housing where you are entitled to an extra bedroom when a child hits 8 years, I wonder what the rules are based on?