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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Footballer found guilty of rape

97 replies

margerykemp · 20/04/2012 23:46

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17781842

Ched Evans has been found guilty of rape and has Benin given 5 years. His co- accused was acquitted though for reasons that don't appear clear.

Hopefully this is a sign that our justice system is entering the 21st century, mini step at a time.

OP posts:
alexpolismum · 21/04/2012 13:03

I just commented on the thread on this in the News section.

I think it would be great if they could also charge the men who were watching through the window - they saw this poor woman being raped and not only did not lift a finger to help her, but actually stayed to watch. You know how you can be charged as an "accessory to murder"? Well, imagine if there were a charge of accessory to rape.

timetochangeagain · 21/04/2012 14:23

Yes if there was a charge of accessory to rape - more people would be found not guilty - it's hard enough to prove rape.

The system is overloaded and can't deal with what it has - while that is a great concept - we need to fix the system we already have.

vesuvia · 21/04/2012 14:26

alexpolismum wrote "imagine if there were a charge of accessory to rape."

I've read that, in at least some US states, people can be charged as an accessory to rape. I've also read that, in Scotland, a person who did not do the actual penetration but assisted a rape in some way would be charged with rape.

Obviously they are not the laws applying in the awful case of this thread, but they are at least on the statute books in some places. I wonder if they have ever been applied and what the outcomes were.

MightyNice · 21/04/2012 18:22

accessory to rape is rape, that is how women in England/Wales are sometimes convicted of rape

timetochangeagain · 21/04/2012 19:48

I seem to remember a gang rape case where the female members were also charged and convicted.

timetochangeagain · 21/04/2012 19:51

here

But I'm sure there has been a more recent one.

TandB · 21/04/2012 22:36

Someone can be convicted of rape on the basis of joint enterprise - the roles can be different, ie someone could act as lookout, someone else could help restrain the victim etc. In very basic terms, the rule about joint enterprise is that someone's role invovlement has to add something to the crime in some way. So someone can be convicted of a gang robbery if they are standing there looking intimidating and adding to the menace of the situation with their presence, but they can't be convicted if they were just standing nearby watching. Obviously it is a difficult evidential line to draw.

From the little we know about the role of the two voyeuristic men, they weren't actively involved in the rape itself (they weren't in the room as I understand it) so couldn't be said to be adding anything to the crime - so it would still have happened even if they weren't filming it. They could, in theory, have been charged with voyeurism but I am guessing the evidence pointed more towards them filming the attack because they thought it was funny, rather than for sexual gratification which is required for a voyeurism conviction.

In terms of the split verdict, I posted about this on the AIBU thread. I am guessing that the two sets of video evidence (CCTV from kebab shop and mobile phone footage) showed her condition deteriorating between her meeting McDonald and being raped by Evans. Her loss of consciousness may even have happened between those two events, making it clear cut for the jury to decide Evans could not have reasonably believed she was consenting, but that they weren't sure about McDonald's belief - remember it is the defendant's state of mind/belief that is being considered.

As I said on the other thread, a split verdict is often believed to indicate that a jury has given proper consideration to the burden of proof and the evidential issues. That they reached different conclusions, whether or not you think the decision was correct, certainly suggests to me that they were grappling with the issue of consent, and probably that they were properly directed by the judge. From the little I have heard about the case it seems to me that the co-defendant was very, very lucky not to be convicted, but I suspect there was something fairly substantial in the evidence that separated the two defendants - possibly to do with the fact that Evans attended deliberately and purely to have sex with a woman who had already had sex with someone else.

KRITIQ · 23/04/2012 12:39

It's interesting to have those insights kfpanda.

By way of follow up, it's disturbing that the raped woman's name has been disclosed repeatedly on Twitter along with abusive comments about her. The law guarantees anonymity for rape victims and in the past, where this has been breached, those responsible have faced criminal charges, right? But it seems with social media, this doesn't apply. Ched Evans rape victim 'named and abused online'

doormat · 23/04/2012 12:44

sik bastards

KRITIQ · 23/04/2012 13:11

Interesting blog here on the subject from Cath Elliott.

FrothyDragon · 23/04/2012 15:09

That "Little Tweets Of Misogyny" blog that Cath Elliot links to in her blogpost is shocking. :(

carernotasaint · 23/04/2012 16:41

Jesus those mysogyny tweets are shocking. We are in 2012 FFS.

carernotasaint · 23/04/2012 16:42

There was a thread about this case in AIBU. Has it been removed?

FrothyDragon · 23/04/2012 16:48

I'm not sure. Really not in the mood to traipse through AIBU atm. :(

And yes, 2012... Not 1812... I think people forget that. Why are we still blaming the victim?

I still don't understand how McDonald was found innocent... Am I just being stupid, here?

Sausageeggbacon · 23/04/2012 18:00

This makes me sick, even worse now when I see the sponsor advert before NCIS on FX (having 3 males in the house is a pain at times) for Joop Homme where they real men like to be watched Angry

cornsyilk · 23/04/2012 18:23

The Joop Homme advert is awful

Krumbum · 23/04/2012 20:23

storify.com/londonfeminist/rape-culture-in-up-to-140-characters
The very best of the twitter comments. Makes incredibly depressing reading.

Krumbum · 23/04/2012 20:24

Sorry here's the link properly
storify.com/londonfeminist/rape-culture-in-up-to-140-characters

Chubfuddler · 23/04/2012 20:29

The first page is the most depressing thing I have ever read. Am stunned at the young bloke who was stunned to find that sex without consent = rape.

Kveta · 23/04/2012 20:35

although thanks for linking it, that story is quite repulsive Krumbum. and, as Chub says, utterly depressing. How can people be so completely ignorant in this day and age, when we have access to more information than people ever had before?

AyeRobot · 23/04/2012 21:30

If you ever wonder why rape trials don't get to court or why rape cases have bizarre outcomes - it is because attitudes like the ones just linked to still prevail. That's why challenging rape myths is so important each and every time you come across them, whether irl, on MN, on FB, in the press. That person might be on a jury one day and even one little challenge might just make them look at evidence with slightly thinner rape myth lenses in place.

KRITIQ · 24/04/2012 09:32

Someone, please remind me not to read the comments at the end of Guardian articles. Amanda Burton has written a good piece on this case and the contribution of rape culture to the twitterstorm that followed. Some of the comments 'get it,' but there are enough others still holding the victim responsible and/or saying the verdict is dodgy that I wondered if I'd stumbled into the Daily Mail or even a men's rights site.

There seems to be alot of iignorance around about the legal definition of rape. Actually, I'd say willful ignorance rather than just plain not knowing.

MightyNice · 24/04/2012 09:42

the guardian is a men's rights site isn't it?

Sausageeggbacon · 24/04/2012 09:48

Hardly say Men's Rights when it has Polly and Kat writing for it. The readers though are a different kettle of fish. The comments last week on an article by Kat Banyard shows what type of men the readers are.

Back on track though this voyeur culture, where does it come from? Two men trying to film a rape why are they not in jail as well? Or is the law such an ass as to say no crime has been committed?

KRITIQ · 24/04/2012 10:14

Sausage, to be fair, right-of-centre papers have often employed a few token "wimmin" writers like Julie Burchill or Suzanne Moore or such not because of any commitment to equality, but more to inflame and provoke. I wouldn't take The Guardian's inclusion of a regular editorial from Polly Toynbee or guest articles from other women as any indication of their inclusivity.

Where did the voyeur culture come from? My hunch is porn - directly from porn, aided and abetted by the Big Brother reality tv show concept that everything we do is for an audience (and that it's legitimate to watch others.)