can someone explain the 'harm reduction' approach to prostitution

[MightyNice]

. . . in a way that makes sense, particularly from a human rights point of view, because it just looks so short-sighted and contradictory - as in, we know harm occurs so let's condone it because, I don't know, why?

prompted by this which I don't understand either

So your view's about ideology - 'men shouldn't be allowed to have too much sex' rather than 'everyone should be able to work in safety and be treated with respect no matter what job they choose to do'.

Well, we'll agree to differ, then.

Paid sex is not always rape. Rape is rape whether or not money changes hands. Insisting that paid sex is rape even though the person who was paid insists that s/he consented is not helpful to anyone.

No. It isn't about ideology, it is about reality.

It isn't 'men shouldn't be allowed to have too much sex' (what is 'too much sex' anyway?).

It is that one gender does not have the right to think that they are entitled to be sexually serviced by another gender (particularly within a society which co-opts and fetishizes the sexuality of an oppressed group which is both defined and oppressed by its sex.)

And I do absolutely think that everyone should be able to work in safety and be treated with respect no matter what work they do.

Like I said, I volunteer in a drop-in centre for prostitutes - the emphasis is very much on safety, and if we weren't respectful the director would tell us to piss off and take our volunteering elsewhere.

I would imagine that the vast majority of people who pay for sex would be likely to hear " it's ok to pay for sex when the sex worker is making a free choice in a career move with good pay / working condition " but would stop listening at "it's ok to pay for sex ". Thin edge of a particularly nasty wedge. :shudder:

Well exactly.

The vast majority of punters don't care if they are masturbating into a pimped trafficked woman (ie they are raping her) or a woman coerced by poverty and a history of sexual abuse (ie they are raping her).

Of course lots of them like to delude themselves that they are with a happy hooker - but they quite obviously don't give a shit whether they are or not, otherwise there wouldn't be so many trafficked and pimped women.

There are no good punters

Beachcomber, where do you arrive at such a statement -

The vast majority of punters don't care if they are masturbating into a pimped trafficked woman (ie they are raping her) or a woman coerced by poverty and a history of sexual abuse (ie they are raping her). ?

As far as I'm aware a significant number of women who have been rescued from trafficking have done so with the aid of a punter. If you are about to mention the research undertaken by Julie Bindel, Melissa Farley and Jan MacCloed can I point out the research was trashed by 18 highly regarded acedemics who in a nutshell said it wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

You also mention being a volunteer at a drop in centre for 'prostituted' women, can I ask, does their funding rely on being of a prohibitionist stance ?
Reason I ask is so many appear to receive their funding on the back of VAW ie. you have to see prostitution as violence in order to receive any.

As far as I'm aware a significant number of women who have been rescued from trafficking have done so with the aid of a punter.

Could you give us your source for that statement please?

You could start with this link, I can try and retrieve more lwhen I'm not pushed for time.

LINK

Thank you.

At least it seems a few handfuls of punters have the approximation of something that passes for a conscience. Wonder how many reported their worries before they had sex with the trafficked woman.......

Though I wonder whether "significant" numbers would actually reach statistical significance in any research considering the thousands of women and punters involved. I suppose we have to be grateful for the rescue of even a small handful of these women and the imprisonment of their traffickers even if the gap in the market is rapidly filled.

And of course if there were no punters ' even "good" ones then there would be no trafficked women as there would be no market to be exploited.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "good" punter - only a slightly less bad one.

More to read (looks worksafe to me)

grimbletart - depends who is doing the research, if it's Melissa Farley and co., have anything to do with it, I'd presume they'd manage to make punters contribution to punters rescuing trafficked prostitutes as insignificant.

Somebody mentioned earlier in this topic Sweden and how significant progress had been made. Forgot I had been given this correlation-net.org/correlation_conference/images/Presentations/MS4_Levy.pdfLINK .

this should work correlation-net.org/correlation_conference/images/Presentations/MS4_Levy.pdf

Actually I said I volunteer in a drop-in centre for prostitutes. I didn't say 'prostituted' women, so no need for any sarky speech marks.

The centre is state funded - I already said that the emphasis is on safety for the women (free needles, condoms, medical check-ups, free meals, showers, dental check-ups, etc). There is a safe house and a paid employee whose job is to help the women access benefits and an eventual route out of prostitution should they so wish. There is no pressure on the women to take up any of the services. They drop in, use what they need and then go off again. The centre also has a drop-in facility for homeless people - the philosophy is the same. There is potentially help for anyone who wishes to leave the streets, but most of the people don't choose this route.

We just try to listen and provide the help requested.

Whilst I'm glad that some punters have alerted the police to trafficking, I'm doubtful that punters will bring about the end of trafficking - what with them being partly responsible for it existing and all.

I said the vast majority of punters don't care about the circumstances of the women they masturbate in - seems logical to me otherwise they wouldn't do it, would they?

Is this going to turn into a punter appreciation thread?