What do you think of this blogpost?

[bronze]

who cares about men's rights?

I kind of got the gist of what he is trying to say but all I felt was wound up that he was trying to pin it all on feminists not doing enough because it's all women's faults isn't it . What do you think?

Stop press: the patriarchy's shit for men too! on balance, it's a whole lot shitter for women, so I'll concentrate my concerns there if that's ok.

Male rape: yes, bad. Who does he think is doing the raping though?

The rest of it: a load of tedious whataboutthemenz whining. Heard it all before.

I think he's got a point. There's a bit of double-think in feminism, or perhaps just on these boards, that

1. If men want their own rights, they should fight for them themselves, feminism is already busy enough with women's issues.
2. Men don't need a separate movement; the problems they face are rooted in patriarchal gender roles, which feminism is already trying to dismantle.

An potential MRA can't win, it seems. If he fights for male rights, then he's redundant because feminism is already doing it. If he doesn't fight for male rights, then he can't complain that feminism isn't getting round to men's issues because they are primarily concerned with women's ones.

I agree with you bronze. I'm guessing the writer is fairly young. Although I called myself a feminist from about the age of 16, I could have seen myself writing something like this when I was late teens or early twenties myself. I don't mean to be ageist or patronising towards the blogger, but just to suggest that from my own experience, sometimes perceptions can change with time and experience.

Reflecting back, I think I so desperately wanted to believe that sexism, misogyny was an aberration, that most people where inherently "good" and everyone should be trying their hardest to pull the "good" out of other people and put it to positive effect. I think I spent alot of time looking for examples to reassure me that this was true (which the blogger seems to be doing.)

While I don't believe that most people are inherently "bad" now (ha!), I'm more realistic about the hugeness and complexity of the task that I then thought would be "simple" and more aware of the wider social, economic and political structures that underpin social injustice and inequality. I also don't hold those men who are "loyal to humanity over their loyalty to manhood," as saints or idols, just decent human beings, and now expect that ALL people should aspire to be decent human beings.

It's interesting that she asks whether Feminists have learned anything from bringing blacks, disabled people, etc. into the movement. She's sort of missed the point that the beneficiaries of patriarchy aren't by and large blacks, disabled people, transgendered people, etc., but men (whether they ask for it or not, whether they actively endorse it or not.) That's a pretty important difference.

During the Civil Rights struggle in the US, there were many African American leaders who were cautious about how much to "reach out" to white Americans, fearing that they would have to dampen down their message, their call for change, too much in order to bring white people "on side." The white Americans who were genuinely committed to ending racial injustice didn't need soft soap and kid gloves in order to support the civil rights movement. Imho, it's the same for feminists and men really.

I believe the blogger in question is female (she describes herself as a girl.)

Yes you are right there. I assumed it was Ben Kling as it's his blog

I think the author doesn't know a great deal about feminism tbh. Feminists aren't the ones spouting crap like ''men can't emotionally relate to women'', ''men don't see dirt'', ''men can't do housework properly'', ''men rape because they're more sexual than women''. Feminists don't teach their sons that big boys don't cry, feminists don't see a boys interest in a baby doll as an early sign of homosexuality that must be stamped out at all cost.

Feminists do challenge macho macho man masculine culture, but we also have our own issues to sort out, poverty has a female face, rape is a crime committed by men against women. These are major issues which should be the main focus on feminism. I disagree with the author who claims that male led initiatives are a lost cause. What kind of defeatist thinking is that? There is no point in starting something because we'll never get anywhere? If the first women's rights campaigners, and equal rights campaigners had had such an attitude, what a different world we would live in now.

At the risk of infuriating that blogger if s/he reads this thread, I kind of want to administer a gentle pat on the head. It's a very young blogpost, and a well-intentioned one, sure. And it's not a sin to state the obvious when you're a teenage blogger, it's fairly unavoidable that you will do so.

But to me one of the base points of feminism is this: that we put women's needs and wants and rights first. Because no one else will. No one else ever has done.

Where's the overwhelming male support for rape crisis centres and women's refuges? Where's the mass men's movements against DV and rape? Where, in fact, are the men who are supporting the feminist cause even though they don't have a female partner or a daughter?

Oh that's right, they aren't there.

To borrow the vernacular of the blogger in question, feminists are fucking BUSY. This isn't some fucking tit for tat nonsense, but the simple fucking fact that women's rights were fought for every fucking step of the way and if we don't keep on keeping on, some fucker will come and take them from us.

Women got off their arses and fought. LGBTQ people got off their arses and fought. People of colour got off their arses and fought.

It's only men who don't see why they should have to.

Plus whenever anyone posts anything like this, it's always bullshit. Rape Crisis centres (set up, fought for, maintained, by women) have helplines: for MEN. Domestic violence charities divert some of their resources: for MEN. There ARE male DV charities and support networks - a quick google shows as much. Feminists fall over themselves to acknowledge that the patriarchy hurts us all. Is it feminists that set the minumum wage? I must have missed that one.

Frankly, and it's not often I say stuff like this, but that blogger can go fuck herself. And so can all the people who 'liked' it.

While I'm on: the draft?! Are we still on the draft? Is it not women who have fought for equal representation in the Armed Forces?

'I care about PUAs'. Um, you go right ahead with your care-a-thon for men who abuse women, corner them in bars, and [[http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/01/19/well-known-pickup-artist-allegedly-shoots-woman-in-the-face/ shoot them in the face.

It's called Google, blogger. Use it.

shoot them in the face

I think is MRAs stopped focusing on what feminism doesn't do for them and instead focused on what they could do for themselves their cause could be as productive as ours is.

The things listed here do exist but feminists are not to blame, Patriarchy is.

The way it comes across to me - and I get the same from your post eccles (if you don't mind me saying - is this feeling that there just must be some primary role for men in a movement. It can't possibly be ok that they might play a more minor role in supporting feminism. It isn't redundant for men to do this t all ... it's just a supporting role, which is fine and great. Women have been forced into supporting roles for centuries. That is awful. It is not, I'm afraid, terribly upsetting or unfair if just this once, with regard to feminism, it's men who end up with the supporting role.

Some things happen to men that are awful. It doesn't take away from the horror an individual suffers, to recognize that he or she is part of a bigger social pattern.

If

Sorry, that wasn't massively clear (typing as I think) - I meant there to be a 'But' before 'It isn't redundant for men to do this at all'.

I agree with it and think it's well written (but then I guess I don't count as a proper feminist). Caring about all the things she cares about doesn't mean not caring about all the other things, too.

There seems to be a bit of a taboo about how sexism affects boys and men. Whenever it is brought up, it's usually silenced with "Duh, of course the patriarchy is bad for men too, why don't they do something about it?"

Nobody said men shouldn't get involved, or that it's all down to women to save the world. But as I understand the blogpost she argues against separatism, and I tend to agree with her.

Now where's the asbestos?

So inequality is the fault of feminists not trying hard enough.

For reasons I am not going to go into, I have spent an inordinate amount of time over the last few days on Mens Rights sites and while they are all happy to whine about feminists, not one of them is going "you know, the way things are isn't fair for anyone, lets see what we can do to support women to change it."

Exactly, babyheave. That's when I start getting the serious gripes about the those who profess to give feminists the good ol'talkin' to that they 'need'.

It's always 'why don't you help? Why don't you teach? Why don't you devote more of your time and energy outside of your chosen cause? Why can't you see that women aren't worthy of your time, and actually it's men you should be caring for?'.

Um, ok then. Excuse me while I liberally rebut your pile of absolute bullshit.

Forgot to say: it is NEVER, EVER, directed at those who profess to need the help. Never. Never once have I ever read a non-feminist exhort their non-feminist comrades to shut up, pitch in, and learn a thing or two from the woman's movement. Never.

Well, I don't have the experience of seeing men (or women) silenced for talking about the issues that concern men. In fact I have seen these issues brought up a great deal. I remember when I was a teenager, a girl we knew was raped. And oddly enough, the fictional storyline everyone was associating with rape just then was a male rape, which (inadvertently, but unfortunately), had been presented as rather more traumatic than a woman being raped. I am sure it was just co-incidence and of course I am glad that young men had something to identify with. But I certainly don't think any of us could have grown up not being aware of male rape.

I don't understand what 'separatism' means in this context. Men have a role supporting feminists. Lots of men take on that role perfectly cheerfully - the men who came to Reclaim the Night and did the food stick in my mind. Equally, I know lots of straight women who support gay men's (and lesbians' rights) ... but they don't seek centre stage, they know the best way to help is by being supportive, not by trying to pretend they're in the same boat. If 'separatism' means acknowledging that the patriarchy doesn't affect men and women equally, well ... duh.