personal light bulb moment, trivial, just wanted to get it off my chest

[vezzie]

I have a friend with two children the same age as mine. We've spent a lot of time together on 2 maternity leaves. I find her husband difficult, but who cares - I don't see him nearly as much as I see her and I didn't marry him, she did. However I have always been a little puzzled by the strength of my reaction to him - how apparently trivial interactions live on in my mind, riling me for far longer than necessary, and I have often tried to talk myself out of this. I have sometimes wondered why he doesn't seem to like me and what I have done that might have got us off on the wrong foot.

FINALLY I have realised that it is nothing to do with him not liking me.

Everything he has ever said or done to me makes complete sense if you look at it through the prism that he doesn't regard women (he does this to all his wife's friends) as fully human. He talks over me, tells my friend to do other things, in or out of the house, as if I were not there (me and my dcs having been invited over by her to spend time with her and her dcs), he sits down in a chair I have momentarily got out of to wipe a nose, leaving me standing or looking for another one, appears when "working from home" and tucks into food that my friend was about to offer to me, etc. All this is pretty rude and I interpreted it to mean he didn't want me around and wondered why. He is superficially friendly, says hello, etc, so why does he behave as if I were not there or he wishes I were not? I suddenly realise: if you imagine I were a dog, all this would be normal. In his mind it would be ridiculous for you to imagine that his wife's time or attention is taken up by an ignorable entity like a woman, a mere other mother.

That is all. I feel clarity now.

so you thought it was you. As women do. And then you realised it was him.

He sounds like a total arse. I'm glad you worked it out. Feel sorry for your friend though....

well it could be. you could almost make it make sense if you look at it like that (which I did up to now) but he seems so relaxed around me, no sense of gritted teeth at all. I suppose I expect people to be either better actors (appear friendly and you have no idea) or worse (they can't quite be convincing when they say "how are you?")

if you see it as I am not quite real to him, it makes complete sense

anyway there is nothing I can do about it, I have been saying for years now "or, we could meet at the common?" in case I'm driving him nuts and she always says, "no, come over"

She probably can't stand him and prefers it when you're there.

Can you point out his rude behaviour (politely), just to draw attention to it.

I have a similar friend but we just don't see each other that much any more. He's abusive and dislikes anyone who doesn't show the correct level of deference.

I keep in touch only because I want to be around to support her should she ever leave.

Yes, it sounds like the penny has dropped with a loud thud on this one. I've witnessed the same sort of thing before, not just with men who have no regard for women or girls, but also with white people who are noticeably "offish" when there is a non-white person on the group.

Interestingly enough, I can think of a couple of occasions where Black colleagues have asked me why they think such and such doesn't like them and I've been pretty straight up with the, "have you thought the problem might be with them, that they're racist?"

Thing is, I think we want to believe in situation like that that maybe it's something to do with us personally, not just because women and people of colour are socially conditioned to believe if there is "fault" it probably lies with them. I think also if you can believe that maybe you did something they didn't like or made an off hand comment that offended them, at least you can perhaps make amends somehow.

But, if you can only conclude the reason they don't like you is something you couldn't change even if you wanted (e.g. your sex, your skin colour,) that pretty well means there's nothing you can do to change the situation.

Having said that, unless you absolutely have to engage with the person who's being such a complete tool, it's often best just to cut them off and cut them out. Life's too short to deal with jerks where you have the chance to avoid them.

Is it possible OP that your friend could just come visit you rather than you going round there, or meet perhaps somewhere that he won't be? It's probably also hard to think that your friend is in a relationship with someone who has those views, knowing it will have a massive impact on their relationship and her happiness and self esteem. You can only hope that at some point, she'll decide to give the tosser the heave ho as well.

It's not "doesn't like", more "doesn't recognise as human".

person who doesn't like someone / something (eg dogs) = looks uncomfortable when they are there, will visibly try to avoid them, will be anxious to make arrangements without them if possible

person who doesn't recognise as human = may be quite calm around them, may be apparently friendly, but would not treat them as someone with something to say, requiring somewhere to sit, someone who had made plans, someone who may have thought out intentions and strategies

they seem happy enough, he is no worse than many of the dps and dhs on mumsnet. I wouldn't last 2 days in a marriage with him, or even a house share, but many women do shack up with these types, for whatever reason

Well vezzie, people can be really good at acting like chameleons, so it may be that the way this man is behaving isn't at all like he did when your friend first met and married him. Also, I've heard some women say how delighted they are to be dating a man with "old fashioned values" (e.g. opens car door, always pays, seems polite and well mannered in an old skool way,) only to later discover that those "old fashioned values" extend to regarding women as pretty objects, housemaids, to be seen and not heard and generally, not as important as men. You can spend alot of time thinking you can "recover" the person you first fell in love with, but as you say, there are plenty of tales on the relationship boards of women getting subsumed in a controlling relationship almost insidiously and how hard it is to extract yourself when you're on the inside of it.

vezzie, I feel similar about my mate's husband. I think he feels that women should 'know their place' and he's bemused by me because I can be gobby and opinionated and refuse to marry my DP. She herself has described him as 'chauvinistic' and feels that he doesn't take her as seriously as he takes his mates, all of whom are male. It's gutting - I wish she was with a nice feminist bloke!

"It would never occur to me that anyone would ever feel like this just because I was female."

That's kind of the point - it didn't occur to vezzie for years that this might be what was going on.

Maybe it is, maybe it's not.

But you surely can't believe it's impossible that he might not think women are worthy of proper social consideration?

I know men like this. Interrupting the conversation, like his opinion is the one that matters, is one such action.

I think Kritiq has nailed it on the head by using the racist analogy and her advise to meet on neutral ground or at your house is what I would suggest too.

Life really is too short to spend in the company of such people like your friend's husband.

Lotta, I find the older I get, the less tolerant I am of intolerance. I've shed friends and family where I found I could no longer keep schtum about their or their partner's sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. It's different, for example, if I thought say a female friend was in an abusive relationship and needed my support. What I mean is I just can't be arsed with any more hideous evenings at the pub with a herd of low level, let alone high level bigots. DH is the same - for example not long ago stopped going out with his brother if he knew one of his brother's friends would be there as he had a verbal set-to with him about strip clubs last time he saw the guy.

Life's too short to suffer fools if you don't have to.

Interesting post Kritiq. It's true that we often see such "old fashioned values" as being gentleman-like and respectful towards women, when in reality they're anything but.

I've experienced this also OP, men who are not friendly towards their girlfriends' friends. I think they see them as trivial and not worth talking to. It's not you, it's him.

rubyrubyruby, the older I get, the clearer it becomes to me that the way I, friends, and acquaintances have been treated and are treated by certain men is entirely to do with the fact that they view us as a different, less important species.

Not all men. My OH isn't like that, and two of my best friends are men who are not like that.

But there are a lot of them, I've known a lot of them, and with them, gender is not irrelevant. If you haven't come across this kind of man, you are, in my opinion, very lucky.

Well ruby, in any case, surely it's his wife's house as well, so are you suggesting what he wants (i.e. the op not to be there) is the most important thing?

If so, that actually kind of illustrates what the OP was saying!

I think the OP's point is that if he didn't like her hanging around, he'd probably be ruder, in fact; make his feelings known. I suspect it's the indifference to her that makes her think that he just doesn't think she's important enough to bother with.

Ruby, why do you seem so invested in reducing this situation to an instance of personal dislike? I mean, it might be, obviously - none of us is the OP and can diagnose the situation from within - but nothing in the OP's posts seems to me to contradict her realisation.

But, even if that is the case Ruby, is a husband automatically entitled to dictate who visits the family home, when and in what circumstances? That in itself would constitute a feminist issue.

I'm not getting the feeling this is a single incident of the man being offish to the OP, but a pattern of behaviour towards her in various contexts and over a period of time.

Others on the thread have also cited examples of men they have met in similar circumstances who behave in a similar way towards women, so it's more than just a one-off issue.

Really Ruby? I find that odd. What about him respecting his wife's friendship unit then? Or is that not important?

What are you saying? That it is never okay to bring a friend into your home when your partner is there? If that's the case, should I not have friends round when my daughter is here too?