Mr and Mrs

[ICaughtSherlock]

I have never really thought about feminism in any depth before. I always put Ms on forms etc but that's about as far as it goes.

But this week I got rage.

Started new job, and - without outing myself - in letters, on documents etc men have to be named first. I prepared a doc with the woman's name first and was told that this should be changed as it would offend the man and wasn't the done thing. I argued for about half an hour which is so so unlike me. I was over ruled.

I just keep thinking I genuinely never even look to see who is named first on mine and dp's correspondence. It's so depressing people still notice this shit!!

DP wouldn't mind if I got named first on our joint correspondence - but it never happens. All I do is try and upset this convention whenever the opportunity arises, it may be a small thing but it all adds up. Guess you can't do much in a work context if your boss insists on man first.

Could you try keep getting it 'wrong' and ask them to explain why again each time cos it just doesn't make sense, and you're confused as it sounds a bit sexist.

I notice. Our bank stuff is addressed to me first. One of the account benefits things have switched the names round. I am going to have words...

And I always put madam/sir instead of the usual way. Cos it's alphabetical then innit.

Interesting. The idea of a man being offended at his name not being first is rather odd, seems more like justifying a tradition that has no real meaning.

As a possible positive sign of things changing, when my DH signed up to donate for guide dogs, he put our kids' names down so the donations are given in their names and information related to the dogs comes to them. Since there are 4 of them, their names won't fit, so it comes to addressed to "Misses and Masters [Surname]" (doubly interesting, to me, as the names were given in age order and my eldest is a boy, but the girls - both in Misses and when they list the names, have always been listed first by them).

I am going to keep putting the woman's name first I think and just keep banging on about it. I really avoid confrontation normally but this has really got to me for some reason. What's even more frustrating is I was arguing predominately with women!

It isn't something I can get worked up about to be honest. Someone has to be listed first, I don't see if it matters if it's the man or woman.

I've got a PhD, so by rights I could insist that we be listed as Dr & Mr on our correspondence, but I don't use the Dr. title personally [as I think it's a big smug]. I only use it professionally. Therefore on all personal correspondence we're Mr J and Mrs M-E S. It just doesn't bother me.

I guess Mr & Mrs is the "norm" unless a couple specify otherwise.

A tactic when people say something sexist is to act like you don't understand so they have to explain. Then they can only do so by essentially saying something overtly sexist which makes your point for you.

I put the name first of the person of the couple I knew first, or better. but usually I don't put Mrs or Mr, just first names, Quaker style.

We are Dr and Dr with different surnames so we never get addressed as Mr and Mrs except by junk mailing.

Our bank account is Mrs & Mr but I didn't ask for that - that was what they called it when we opened it.

It really doesn't bother me either way tbh

Was it Mr. and Mrs? Or was it using first names? Using first names I go for what sounds best first, but I would always say "Mr. and Mrs." rather than the other way - not that I ever correspond with anyone on a Mr. and Mrs. basis.

I don't use titles in correspondence, unless someone has specifically requested it, and I've got all my staff to do that, too now.

DH and I have different surnames and I think the only joint correspondence we'd get is regarding the mortgage. Can't remember whose name comes first on that.

Occasionally our surnames get swapped around which doesn't bother us. But, other people seem to get anxious if they've inadvertently given him my surname - assuming that would be offensive, whereas giving me the wrong name or a title I don't use isn't supposed to be a biggie.

Interestingly enough, at the vets, 2 of our pets have my surname and 1 has DHs surname. I should probably tell them that they all have different surnames from both of us!

I once owned a house that I lived in with my younger brother.
The bank accounts, bills etc were always addressed to his name first whatever I tried to tell them, even correspondence from the bank that knew that he was a student, and I was working, that the house belonged to me etc.
I was actually shocked as it was my first experience of such sexism.

A slightly different part of the Mr/Mrs/Ms issue, but after contributing to a thread on Chat, I went and took a look at my old high school's website.

I noticed that all female teachers are now listed as Ms. as opposed to Miss or Mrs. Given that this is a Roman Catholic school, with "traditional" opinions/values, I am quite impressed. They weren't doing this by the time I graduated a decade ago, married female teachers were Mrs, and unmarried were Miss.

I use Mrs. personally, and Dr. professionally, but if I didn't have a doctorate I would use Ms. professionally. I have several married friends who do this, as whilst they're happy to be Mrs. in their personal life, they don't think it's relevant for their marital status to be used professionally.

We've had this in our student house. 5 girls, 1 boy. Every single bill has put him first, regardless of who actually set it up.

I am a married Ms. It confuses the hell out of unimaginative address-writers.

I think most people who write to us do what Arctic does, and put the name of the person they know better first. DH and I had a discussion about this once and we agreed that when push came to shove, alphabetical order of first names was a sensible way of doing it. Thing is, I use my middle name, so it's still confusing.

Yup, TSC, I'm a Ms also. I don't have a problem with marriage, in fact, DP and I are planning on getting married, but with no name / title changing (except, that DP has discussed double-barrelled for both our names, so he is Mr. Shadows-Whatever and I am Ms Shadows-Whatever, so we all have the same name.

All of out joint correspondence has been addressed primarily to him. Which is why we feel the way we do re our correspondence. It bothers him as much as it does me. Our current lease is in my name. With both of us as contacts. Works well for us.

This reminds me of the company which asked me to print out POs on 90g paper before faxing them to the supplier, because it "looked more professional".

We've always done it that way, and that's why we continue it, rather than asking questions.

I'm pretty sure we get letters addressed to "WW and WW's bloke" as well as "WW's bloke and WW". Not that either of us pays attention.

I'm a Ms most of the time, but can't summon the energy to get offended at Mrs. It's Miss I really don't like.

We have had a few recently (TC and council tax) through as Mr HisName Dr MyName which I thought as odd as I thought Dr came first. DH set them both up though so I attributed it to that.

Mr coming first has never really bothered me, after all convention has it that an audience is addressed as "Ladies and Gentlemen." I do get annoyed when letters are addressed to my son (who is away at uni) because it is assumed as the only male registered here he owns the property.

Saying "Mrs & Mr" just doesnt have the same flow though.

I dont see it as a big deal who is named first

It didn't bother me that much til we got some shares issued from a bank and they were put just in dh's name as he was the first account name. Given that this was a major bank giving shared to hundreds of thousands of people, I would say it's very real sexism.

So now it really does upset me

I am first-named on our joint accounts and mortgage - I am the highest earner and DH is generally not very comfortable with financial stuff, and I learned way back when we started saving for our first mortgage deposit that a building society would only count the first named person on a joint account as a "member" so I have always felt it was appropriate that it should be me.

At work I am working towards a gender-blind joint-addressee policy (I work as a fundraiser) - I only won half the battle with my superiors, and they have agreed that were a donation from a (mixed gender obv) couple was sent in by the woman, correspondence should be addressed to [title] HerSurname & [title] HisSurname - but all other couples are currently addressed with him first. However, the alphabetical order of first names idea didn't occur to me when I was having this discussion - I was pushing for a system where we always named the person that the organisation has the strongest relationship with first - and this was deemed too complicated to keep track of. If I get a chance to raise the issue again, I might try to make this suggestion.

About this time last year when we were house hunting but had not yet found a house we liked, I agreed to meet the estate agent's mortgage adviser to see what deals they could offer us. The organisation had had zero contact with my DH, I had been the one who telephoned, who viewed the properties etc, and I went to this finance meeting on my own. When the (female) financial adviser started filling in a form on screen with the details I gave, she automatically put my details in as "secondary" applicant (even though I gave them to her first) and DH as "primary". I told her I found this offensive, and she didn't seem to understand why I would be - that obviously women are always second. (but then, she did dress like a barbie doll so maybe she isn't very liberated).