Does reading about male abuse affect how you see men?

[miloben]

Hi everyone. I've been reading through almost all the topics over a number of nights and I have learned an awful lot about women's fight against abuse and disadvantage, as well as male privilege. Though I have been a feminist for several years, ever since I worked in SE Asia and saw how much work women did compared to the men, I kinda had it on the back burner, and was a half hearted feminist - one in name only if that makes sense. Then I had a baby girl, and because of my daughter really, I have become interested in the kind of lives women have and can expect to have.

I very much love learning about feminism and feel strongly about teaching my daughter (and new born son) about the world we live in and the struggles women face. However, I think I am becoming a bit resentful towards men. I HATE how hardly any of them speak out about it...I even found myself saying to my friend how great David Schwimmer was when I heard he spoke out against rape...until I thought to myself that is what ALL men should be doing, but don't, and he isn't so great.

I have a wonderful father, husband, brother...all the men in my life in fact are pretty terrific, yet because of so many other men's abuse of women and their disinterest in stopping it, I think I am starting to harbour a resentment towards men as a collective group. Hell, if I'm honest, I would say I don't like men very much right now. And as I have a little son, I know this is wrong. My husband, despite being a feminist, has just voiced his concern that I am beginning to be very critical of men in general and derogatory. He is right about that. I just feel so ANGRY!!!

I am just wondering if any of you have gone through this and what you did to change how you viewed men. The last thing I want is to be consumed by hatred like the misogynists I deplore. Thank you very much, and I hope I haven't waffled on too much!!

[Sanjeev]

Can I answer without spamming? The figures for violence are shocking. They aren't 'out there' in mainstream media, or certainly aren't discussed. I think men are violent, period. I want to know what the research suggests, and here seems like a relevant place to ask about it.

[KRITIQ]

I don't think it's really possible to make anything but a wild guess at what might be the same or different if women "had the upper hand in society," any more than it would to ask if Black people did, or Lesbians and gay men, or any other group that has been and remains in a position of disadvantage. It hasn't happened before, is unlikely to happen, so is along the lines of asking, "what would it be like if the sky were green and the grass was blue," ifyswim.

But, the second question that "popped up" for you is a bit more interesting - it's about men's violence in general and what makes that happen, and in what context it happens. Imho, when a man uses abuse and control against a partner, whether they are female, male or transgender, it's still a manifestation of male privilege. It's an abuse of trust within what should be a loving and trusting relationship and an assertion of greater power and privilege over the partner.

I think that dynamic may be even more clear in the context of rape. While rape victims can be women, girls, men, boys and transexual people, the perpetrators of rape are men (and sometimes older boys.) Rapists see the victims not as humans of equal value to them, but as inferior, as objects to be shagged, used, controlled, abused. They believe their right to penetrate them is more important than the right of the other person to have control over their own body.

In many cases, men and transexual people are raped by men who identify as "straight," but see their victims in the role of proxy women - think of prisons, the military, etc. Still a function of misogyny, even when the attack isn't always on a woman.

[KRITIQ]

Soz - went off and did something else before finishing the post so seems waaaaay out of context now. Night all.

[BertieBotts]

I think there are figures in The Equality Illusion, but my copy is upstairs.

From memory the figures show overwhelmingly that:
Most relationship violence (a high percentage) occurs within heterosexual relationships, from the man to the woman.
The second category is violence within male gay relationships, though it is significantly lower.
I can't remember the order of female on male violence or female on female within relationships, but they were the bottom two and the figures were small. I think that female to male might be the slightly higher one, but I can't remember.

There are figures around, you just have to look for them. Another thing to look up is the documentary Tough Guise from 1999. It's on youtube.

I also feel very strongly that really we only have until 10 or 11 to really raise our children. After that, they aren't going to listen to you - they are going to listen to their friends, the media, other people they admire. The things they gain from you, they have to already have gained this. It's no use waiting until they are 13 or 14 to talk relationships with them, if every example you've unconsciously given them up to this point is terrible. This is what makes it so hard because they are at this age where they are having to make these kinds of moral choices or judgements and really, you can't steer them at all. You have to hope that you've provided the right environment so that whatever seeds they come across, from friends, the media, whatever, are cultivated in the right way and the ones you hope will survive do and the ones you hope don't, don't. Because you don't get to decide what kinds of influences those will be. You don't get to choose what's planted, you can only water them and attempt to weed out the bad ones, with inadequate tools.

milo I so agree that it's depressing to see women fall into the accidentally (or even the not-so-accidentally) sexist category too. It's also one of the biggest signposts to me that it's a cultural/structural issue, too, not an issue that is confined to depressingly large numbers of people.

[Sanjeev]

So then, OP. You wonderful dad, brother, husband and son. However nice they are in your eyes, every other Mumsnetter will see them through the same veil of anger and hatred that you have.

They wont see the flowers on Mothers Day, or the cup of tea in bed, or the wonderful family holidays you enjoy. They see wife batterers, rapists, street gang members and privileged misogynists. I guess what has been seen cannot be unseen. Your family, your own flesh and blood, carrying out all these acts.

[blackcurrants]

Sanjeev what on earth are you talking about?

[NarkedPuffin]

Always come up for air.

[Sanjeev]

I am talking about the op's post. She says, 'I have a wonderful father, husband, brother...all the men in my life in fact are pretty terrific,...'.

Then she says, 'yet because of so many other men's abuse of women and their disinterest in stopping it, I think I am starting to harbour a resentment towards men as a collective group. Hell, if I'm honest, I would say I don't like men very much right now.'

So to precis, for those hard of reading, 'The men in my life are wonderful. The others are fuckers.' And by fuckers, we mean abusers, rapists, misogynists...all the awful things that male abusers do. And I am saying to the op, do you take on board that that is precisely how other women would/should see the men in your life that you rate so highly?

[blackcurrants]

Sanjeev do you ever read anything posted on these threads?
One poster has said that she's wary of men until she gets to know them.
Lots of posters have talked about the men in their lives they view with affection and respect.

What the other posters are also saying is that once a woman's eyes are opened to the systemic suppression and oppression of women by the patriarchy, it is hard to view all men as a benign force.

No one has written what you have interpreted.

A question just popped into my head: did you read my 1850s slave in Jamaica / English coal miner analogy, from the other thread, and did you understand what I meant by systemic privilege?

[Beachcomber]

Miloben you don't come across as bitter. You do sound angry, but like we have all been saying, there is nothing wrong with being angry. Indeed it is a normal healthy response to violence against women and the treatment of women as second class citizens.

I find seeking out women only spaces is a great help too. It lets you take a break from the relentless nature of patriarchy - it's nice sometimes to be in a group of people where there is not the patriarchal power dynamic, and women can share things and support each other, without constantly being attacked for it or having to justify it.

Also it is important to laugh. Laughter is a great healer - I know there is a stereotype of feminists as humourless, and it couldn't be more wrong. I regularly belly laugh at stuff on this forum and on feminist blogs and spaces. I know lots of aspects of feminism aren't funny at all but there are plenty of things to poke fun at in patriarchy. Ripping the piss out of patriarchy isn't going to make it go away but it cheers one up and I think laughter is a very effective tool of opposition.

[BertieBotts]

Wow. I'm so glad I spent that time and energy typing out a thoughtful reply to Sanjeev.

[Beachcomber]

Yes, Bertie - I spent time and energy thoughtfully answering some questions he fired at me on another thread. He hasn't yet bothered to acknowledge my polite response. Still, I suppose that is an improvement on the feminist as man hate trope.

[miloben]

Thanks Beachcomber - I think you have made some fantastic suggestions. I have laughed out loud, like you, at many of the threads here and have been quite in awe of the knowledge so many of the women possess. That is why I felt very comfortable asking for advice and saying how I felt. I love the idea of ripping the proverbial out of the patriarchy. :D

Sanjeev - I think that if I have come across as hating men, then I didn't express myself in the way I had hoped. I don't hate them...I never look at a man and think 'I HATE you, you bastard' - I look at them as human beings, which is probably more than how some men look at me. As Sunshine said, and I agree, I feel wary of men until I get to know them. I just wait to see what kind of men they are. Not to assume they are rapists...but like I said in my thread, I see them as complacent. Now I know the extent of sexism and yes, abuse directed towards women by men, then I feel this is just how it is for me. And I wouldn't expect other women to view MY loved ones as something different to other men just because of my relations to them.

I feel that men speaking out on behalf of women is a win-win situation for them. It shows women that men DO care about women and that they are not prepared to be painted by the same brush. But for some reason, most of them don't seem bothered.

[Beachcomber]

hater.

Sorry, must preview!

[Sanjeev]

I did read your analogy, blackcurrant. It made sense to me. I benefit from the way society is set up purely because I am a male. I may not be out actively abusing, but everything in society benefits me because of male privilege. I would be being obtuse to argue with that. I benefit also from being white, and being born in a rich Western country. The fact that I can buy a 99p pair of socks made in an Indian sweatshop is testament to that.

blackcurrant, all I ask is that you treat my posts the same as you would those of anybody else, or as you would if I were female. I sense a slight exasperation on your part. The fact I quoted the OP means that I read what was posted. My interpretation - well, that is all it is. I am not perfect. I may be wrong. But please treat it as an earnest attempt to understand miloben, and to highlight what I see as a contradiction in the OP.

Apologies if these posts are spread out a bit. I am trying to get the kids sorted for Mothers Day tomorrow.

[Sanjeev]

Bertie, many thanks. I am aware that I spammed earlier, and am trying to rein it in, plus I don't want to distract from miloben and what is her thread. I looked up the book on Amazon. I am just steaming through an economics book I bought yesterday, but I may try yours next. Plus, your pov about only having their attention until 10/11 is pretty much what I wrote earlier. As I said above, I am sorting out the kids and Mothers Day tomorrow so am pushed for time.

[Sanjeev]

miloben - it was more the contradiction that I was trying to get to the bottom of. This 'my guys are great' versus 'my resentment towards men as a collective group'.

There is a lot of 'not rocking the boat' in society, including from men on these issues. The status quo suits some women too, hence the amount of female-female conflict on these boards. I don't really know what you do about that. You originally asked how to channel you anger. Given that the feminist political movement is gaining momentum, what about founding a political party? One that goes for actual Parliamentary seats, and power? It should be attractive to at least 51% of the UK electorate, and I think Cameron only got 29% last time. It might seem a bit pie-in-the-sky, but this is how working class men got the vote, and therefore a seat in power.

[Sanjeev]

Finally, Beachcomber - please tell me which thread your reply is on. I can't find it.

[Sanjeev]

FirstLast - I don't want to be treated as female. I want to be treated as equal, thank you very much.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Sanjeev, you're being way too harsh on the OP. She obviously realizes that she's got a problem and that's why she seeking advice. She's consciously trying to NOT go down the path of resenting men and she sees the contradiction she is making which is why she posted in the first place, pretty bravely IMO considering the way her words could so easily to used against her to prove feminist = man hater.

So give her a break.

[Sanjeev]

messy - I agree, it is pretty brave, and open to interpretation. If I have been harsh on miloben, I don't see where, but I am sorry if I offended her. It was never my intention. It is interesting to hear/read a feminist be so open, and use those words.

[Beachcomber]

It will be in your list of 'threads I'm on'.