Does reading about male abuse affect how you see men?

[miloben]

Hi everyone. I've been reading through almost all the topics over a number of nights and I have learned an awful lot about women's fight against abuse and disadvantage, as well as male privilege. Though I have been a feminist for several years, ever since I worked in SE Asia and saw how much work women did compared to the men, I kinda had it on the back burner, and was a half hearted feminist - one in name only if that makes sense. Then I had a baby girl, and because of my daughter really, I have become interested in the kind of lives women have and can expect to have.

I very much love learning about feminism and feel strongly about teaching my daughter (and new born son) about the world we live in and the struggles women face. However, I think I am becoming a bit resentful towards men. I HATE how hardly any of them speak out about it...I even found myself saying to my friend how great David Schwimmer was when I heard he spoke out against rape...until I thought to myself that is what ALL men should be doing, but don't, and he isn't so great.

I have a wonderful father, husband, brother...all the men in my life in fact are pretty terrific, yet because of so many other men's abuse of women and their disinterest in stopping it, I think I am starting to harbour a resentment towards men as a collective group. Hell, if I'm honest, I would say I don't like men very much right now. And as I have a little son, I know this is wrong. My husband, despite being a feminist, has just voiced his concern that I am beginning to be very critical of men in general and derogatory. He is right about that. I just feel so ANGRY!!!

I am just wondering if any of you have gone through this and what you did to change how you viewed men. The last thing I want is to be consumed by hatred like the misogynists I deplore. Thank you very much, and I hope I haven't waffled on too much!!

[sunshineandbooks]

It sort of has for me.

Aye posted earlier about how she found a lot of men to be great towards individual women in their lives, but at the same time shoring up the patriarchy and inequality in their attitudes/behaviour toward women as a group.

I feel a bit like that in reverse. I know several wonderful men in my own life, and others in the public eye who make it clear to me that there are plenty of good men out there. Unfortunately, I find they are outnumbered by those who at worst treat women with contempt, and at best simply don't care enough to think about it and so perpetuate the inequality. It's left me being somewhat ambivalent towards new men I meet until I am able to see into which camp they fall. However, I don't think that makes me blinkered, distrusting or 'bitter'. I think it's actually quite a sensible approach to living in a patriarchy where 1 in 4 women will be beaten or raped.

Another thing that has made it more difficult for me is the relationship between abuse and housework. I know that some people will be thinking WTF at this point, but I think it's a fair comment. If you accept that abuse is borne from privilege and entitlement, then refusal to do your fair share of the housework simply because it is normal to expect the woman to do it is on that spectrum of privilege and entitlement.

Ok, it's not breaking a woman's jaw or raping her, and a sense of perspective needs to be kept, but IMO it comes from the same place. I accept that many men (and as many women) fall into this pattern because it is normalised in our society. I think there are a lot of decent men out there who are 'guilty' of this who would be horrified at their behaviour if they really thought about it. The few men I've suggested read 'wifework' for example, have had a complete turnabout.

But what really gets me is that all too often nothing changes when the woman has said 'enough is enough'. At that point, it ceases to become an internalised norm because it has been questioned. Refusing to answer that question in a way that results in a fairer division of labour says only one thing about how that man views women IMO. Only yesterday there was another piece of research out showing that women are still shouldering more than their fair share of domestic labour.

[Beachcomber]

I think that is a really good point sunshineandbooks. It is the sort of thing that so many men choose to be oblivious of and it really just isn't good enough.

I'll never forget first meeting my PIL - we had a lunch together and, once finished, FIL just got up and walked away from the table and went to watch the TV. MIL had just cooked a three course meal for 5 people, served it, constantly got up and down to get more wine, water, bread, etc throughout. Then she was expected to clear the table and do the dishes by herself.

I was gobsmacked by the entitlement shown by FIL. And he isn't a bad man or a cruel one - still acted like a entitled dick though when it came to household things. MIL worked full time as well.

I think it is important that feminists are angry about this sort of thing too. Like you say, not the rage that we might feel at violence but the above is exploitation for crying out loud.

[lesley33]

I think as you become more aware of feminism, you start to notice sexism and miosogony by individual mean that you didn't notice before. I know I am more attutuned to it. So I don't think thsi would be surprising.

But no being angry at all men is unfair. Men are negatively affected by sexism too. Think of the boy/young man bullied all the way through his childhood because he is too effeminate and not "man enough". Or the young boy soldiers abroad forced to rape girls to prove they "are a man". Or the men in more traditional cultures who never get to know the joy of playing wit their children, because children are women's work.

Sexism harms everyone.

[KRITIQ]

I agree with lesley 33. As I get older and gain more knowledge and experience, I am more aware of the structures and systems of oppression (not just sexual oppression,) but I recognise that these structures place constraints on ALL people, including those who ostensibly benefit more from privilege.

More than reading about gender oppression, I found working as a nurse and then for Women's Aid many, many years ago was a spur that "opened my eyes," and pushed me from being a "theoretical feminist" (i.e. the political was not yet personal) into an "experiential feminist." However, even hearing day in, day out, at first hand of some of the most ghastly, hideous things men can do to women didn't make me think less of men I encountered.

It made me more likely to spot examples of misogyny, less likely to collude with them and more likely to call them out. It led me to explore the concept of intersectionality of privilege and oppression and the scales really fell from my eyes when I recognised just how similar the mechanisms of oppression in society were. It made me less tolerant of intolerance. But, it didn't shake my fundamental love of people, even when staring into the abyss. I didn't fall into it. I figured if those who'd experienced the most horrible sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. abuse didn't emerge from it filled with bitterness and hatred, I had no right to either. What I did have though was a responsibility to bloody do something about the injustice - channelling the anger into something that could make a positive difference.

Does that make sense?

[MyBrainIsOutOfTune]

I envy those of you who have found something to do with your anger; I'm still at the point where I don't have anything to channel it into - so I have a long, angry rant at my husband every time I open a newspaper instead All the horrible stuff I read makes me boil with rage, and when I see or hear misogyny in my daily life, I sort of shut down, because if I don't, I will probably start to scream I would love to have well-thought-out, sensible responses to such encounters and be able to deliver them in a way that might make people think, but now I'm altogether full of FEELINGS to have any hope of making sense

I must admit that I've thought everything would have been much easier if I had just allowed myself to continue being oblivious to privilege (others' and my own). I suppose it's possible to go back, to just make myself ignore things, but somehow I don't see that as the ethical thing to do I said to DH the other day that soon the only option left was to retreat to the forest and depend on myself for everything I need so I don't inadvertently exploit anyone and don't have to see everything that's wrong with the world. It might come to that yet..

[Sanjeev]

I can't attribute terrorist acts to all Muslims, or Irish Catholics, due to the acts of a few nutters. Surely the same applies to the acts of a few violent men versus the entire population?

[KRITIQ]

Brain, self-preservation is important! I didn't go on in my post, but there's a HUGE risk of burn out and becoming jaded if you DO confront all the misogynist stuff day in, day out. I think there is a sell-by date attached to work where this happens on a regular basis.

It's simply not possible to fight everything you come across in daily life, so sometimes you have to pick those battles carefully, and also know that you aren't alone. Others are fighting, too. It's important to look after yourself, and know your limits as well.

I, too, have a rant from time to time at my DH (and anyone else within earshot! :) ) although often as not, he's the one ranting in the first instance.

I think it's also important to recognise and celebrate even the little victories. It's easy to overlook those, but important not to.

[NarkedPuffin]

When you first start to explore feminism, it can be a shock to the system, because you start to see things that you never really noticed before.

I suppose it's like all the blood vessels in our eyes. We don't 'see' them because our brains filter them out of the image when they process the visual information. When you start reading and find out the numbers of women who will be raped in their lifetime, here in the UK, it's shocking. It is horrendous. And it's hard to see how everyone else isn't there with you going, 'Shit! How are we living in a world where people are fussing about what to have for dinner when THIS is happening!' When you start to look at the lives of women around the world it's horrific what comes with being born a woman. When pre natal scanning is available, you're less likely to be born in some countries, just for having a vagina.

It's about society, not just 'men'. This stuff is perpetuated by women too. I view it as the consequences of the world we are living in and established social norms. It's not about my DH or the bloke living next door being involved in a global conspiracy.

Although the damage done to women and girls is more severe, it does has a negative impact on men too. For example, women are more likely to seek help with depression and emotional issues than men, partly because it's seen as much more acceptable for women to admit 'weakness'.

Raising awareness and changing attitudes/challenging myths is important. Wherever you find them.

[BasilFoulTea]

With respect Sanjeev, Islam and Irish Catholicism do not have a systematic structure of support for the nutters who blow people up. Whereas the legal system, social norms, good manners, every day life, systematically supports male violence against women and punishes women for complaining about it.

OP mainly because of the MN "We believe you" campaign and reading about women who have been jailed for being raped and complaining about it, I am in a rage phase. And yes, reading about how much violence is perpetrated against women and how women are silenced about it and therefore most men are utterly oblivious about it, does make me see men differently as a class - it dismays me that so many who in other ways are intelligent and intellectually curious, seem so uninterested in the nearest injustice to them.

But I don't want to believe that men are a lost cause. I see their potential and humanity and see how patriarchy prevents them realising their potential just as it does women and how so many live their lives in fear of never being man enough, never measuring up to the ludicrous hyper-masculinity of our current culture. I want my son to have a partner who loves him because of himself, not in spite of himself, who lives with him because she wants to be with him, not because the alternative is worse. I want him to have a partnership with real love and friendship untainted by toxic unequal power dynamics. Patriarchy denies him all of this, even if it gives him something better than it gives his sister. They could both have so much better.

I don't really blame men as a group for not actively nailing their colours to the mast, because tbh women haven't done that either for a few years. Women too, have been oblivious to the structural sexism that still blights our lives, but the resurgence of feminism has meant more and more women becoming aware that contrary to what we've been told, we aren't all equal now; we've learned that all the rights we thought were won forever, can be taken away from us by an organised, determined group of woman-haters and their militancy has made many women who were previously complacent, realise the danger to their daughters, if not themselves.

As more women come on board, I expect and hope, to see more men joining us - their privilege has blinded them to the human rights abuse going on under their nose, in their kitchens and bedrooms and offices and nightclubs; but more feminism will bring this shit out into the open and mean that men as a group can't ignore the stink any more. There will be many who will join the MRA's because they don't want to give up their greater negotiation power in their relationships with us; but I hope and trust that most, if they don't actively fight with us, will not actively stand against us.

[BasilFoulTea]

Oops, sorry that turned into a bit of an essay.

And so to bed.



Good night!

[MoreBeta]

miloben - hello. I think this is your first thread so welcome to MN.

I am a man. I am white, middle class and pretty much fit the patriachy model and the object of your anger. I occassionally post here (and a lot elsewhere on MN). I sometimes disagree with people here but try to be constructive.

I wanted to respond to these two things you said.

" I HATE how hardly any of them speak out about it..."

" ... I think why DON'T they notice, when it is their fellow men being abusive."

Truth is many men do notice. Truth is that when it is your boss, someone who might give you a job, a customer, someone who you depend on for something, some bloke who could punch your face in or stab you - then keeping your mouth shut and not speaking out is sensible self preservation.

I'll give you a minor example. Imagine a man with a mortgage, family at home and his boss comes into his office and starts making derogatory and sexist remarks about a female colleague the chances are the man will not say anything. He just does not want to have an arguement with his boss, possibly lose his bonus, promotion or even his job. It won't make his boss any less sexist. There is no upside. He does not want to fight for his female colleague and lose his job so his own wife loses her home.

It does NOT mean the man agrees with his boss. He might hate his boss for the attitude he displays. I had a boss just like that.

I have two sons who I want to make sure will grow up to treat women well and I have a wife who has been badly affected by some of the issues discussed on these threads.

I talk to my sons about these issues. I try to be a good example to them. I don't think I can do more. I know that is an inadequate answer. I think it is how most men operate.

[karmakameleon]

MoreBeta, I think it's perfectly possible for men in that situation to speak out, they just don't want to.

My boss is sometimes homophobic (he's from a conservative Christian background) and I'm quite happy to speak up. Just something as simple as "I think [insert name of gay male colleague] would be quite upset if they heard you speak like that. Probably best not to make comments like that at work. Last thing you need is a lawsuit," will usually put a stop to it. Not speaking up is basically saying you agree.

(Obviously if there is a threat of physical violence I have a bit more sympathy for people who don't speak out.)

[BasilFoulTea]

"I talk to my sons about these issues. I try to be a good example to them. I don't think I can do more."

Really? That's really all men can do?

Really?

[exoticfruits]

I can't think of a better way than being a good example. DCs never do as you say-they do as you do.

[AyeRobot]

Thank you for your honesty, MoreBeta. I think you're right, most men are apathetic, cowardly and reluctant to jeopardise their privilege for the sake of helping women. I was too generous in my previous post, clearly.

"Have you ever wondered why we are not just in armed combat against you? It's not because there's a shortage of kitchen knives in this country. It is because we believe in your humanity, against all the evidence." - Andrea Dworkin

[ReclaimingMyFuckingLife]

I don't have time just now to read the thread, but just wanted to say I know exactly what you mean. I was quite an active feminist in my Uni days and read the book Women's Room by Marilyn French. It was the final straw in getting me so angry that I could hardly look at my DH! I felt I needed to take a break from all that as I wasn't handling it very well. I am now back 'into' my feminism again and understand that to a large degree we are all just born into this society and many don't speak out because they either are uneducated in this area or do not have the emotional resources to fight.
Sorry, not put that very well but will come back to this tonight.

[MoreBeta]

Thinking about this a bit more. Perhaps things are not quite as bad as I painted.

The patriachy is a power structure. Men who are in a position of power can use the power they have to change things. They can also use their power in a negative way. It is their choice how and whether they want to excercise their power. Not all men have real power in the patriachy though. Most are just dependent on it.

I am hopefully starting a new job in September lecturing a university. It is a very senior position. I will be in charge of courses and an entire Masters programme. I will have about 200 students under my care AND will be responsible for their welfare. The university obviously has strong rules about discrimination, violence, bullying, and so on. Obviously, it will be my choice and my responsibility and I will have power to enforce those rules among the student body.

As a senior member of the department I work for I can also highlight where I think the department may be in danger of breaching the university regulations. I can use my position of authority here too.

[Beachcomber]

I think one very important thing men can do is actively support quotas for getting women into political power. And not spout hypocritical bollocks about positive discrimination (cos that's what men have had in politics since forever).

Dead easy one that - at no personal risk of irritating sexist male boss.

Easy peasy. I don't see many doing it though.

[BasilFoulTea]

Of course there's no better way than being a good example Exoticfruits.

But the only way? That's all we can expect from men?

And yet they're constantly telling us to stop focusing on women's issues and fight for more important stuff (practically everything else being more important than women's human rights issues, of course)?

So we are supposed to not fight for our rights because we should be busying ourselves with everyone else's while men stand back and try a few half hearted attempts at good role modelling but don't frighten any horses.

As far as achieving liberation and equality, I'm seeing a flaw in that strategy tbh.

[Beachcomber]

Also surely 'being a good example' means being a good example to one's peers too? I mean peers as in other men, by speaking out and challenging sexist attitudes.

What about childless men, are they just totally let off the hook? Nothing they can do? What about men who no longer live with their children because they are grown up - is their work done?

In addition it sounds rather like palming off responsibility onto one's children to sort things out. Being a good example to one's children should be a given - we need a bit more though.

[messyisthenewtidy]

I saw this Youtube video ages ago and this pro-feminist guy said something along the lines of "Explaining privilege to a man is like explaining water to a fish. They can't see that they're swimming in it."

I reckon the problem is that most men don't see the privilege they have and so don't understand what feminists are making a fuss about. They see themselves as having worked hard to get where they are and on the surface of things women do have equal rights with men. But they don't see the cultural stuff, the constant psychological stuff that women have to put up with: the lack of confidence, the gendered expectations and lack of role-modelling that is like a blanket over our ambitions from a young age.

Plus I think some men believe that women have a better time of it because we "get" to use our sexuality to get ahead. I've met many men who think this. They see a model of men wanting sex, women holding sex as a weapon to get what they want, without seeing that this type of power is really very precarious and temporary and only applies to a few women. Such men also point to the fact that it is men who largely lose their lives in war without taking into account that it is also largely men who start them or that more women have been lost to childbirth than men to wars.

Men haven't been forced to look at women's issues because such issues are often marginalized and filed away under a non-mainstream heading which can easily be ignored. When they are forced to pay attention to women's issues it is often regarding domestic violence or rape and that puts them on the defensive.

Also, I think that sexism towards and objectification of women is a rites of passage in lots of male cultures and any inclination to see it from the woman's point of view is ridiculed by their peers.

Lastly, on a more basic note, many men passively benefit from the system, and so subconsciously make a decision to keep quiet.

[BasilFoulTea]

Basically I think Betadad has just more or less vindicated the OP's first post.



Betadad is not an out and out misogynist - he believes in women's rights, equality, our humanity (sorry to speak for you Betadad, correct me if I misrepresent you). But he's basically telling us, that if we want equality, we're on our own.

I think if we accept that, we can stop feeling angry with men as a class, because we don't expect anything from them - it's a bit like when you stop expecting anything from an abusive parent, or an estranged partner - the anger dissipates, to be replaced by an acceptance that you're not going to get any input from them so you just need to get on with the rest of your life yourself. This protects you from bitterness and endless fruitless wondering about why they don't care enough to engage with you. In the case of women expecting men to show some solidarity with us, if we can accept that they are too pusillanimous, self-serving and selfish to do that, then you accept that that's the best you can expect and it's better than outright misogyny.

I don't want to accept that though. I want to think that most men would be prepared to go a bit further than Betadad suggests, without having to be insulated by money and power. The way they have historically been prepared to do, for other human rights causes. I hope I"m right, but I wouldn't bet my house on it or anything.

[KRITIQ]

What More Beta made me think of was "picking your battles." As a woman and a feminist, I don't challenge each and every example of sexism I encounter, otherwise I'd be exhausted by lunch time. Sometimes you have to think strategically about the opportunities where you can make the biggest difference and push those, but also you have to consider your personal safety and sometimes yes, your welfare and livelihood. If, for example, I'm in a pub and I overhear a group of 5 or 6 men making sexist remarks and I'm on my own, it might be too risky to challenge them directly. It can be the same for a man in that situation too.

But, having said that, it can be really easy to become complacent - to convince yourself there is nothing you can do about an injustice because you don't have the power, it's not the right context, your safety or livelihood could be at risk. Men who are committed to challenging sexism especially need to be vigilant, be quite tough on themselves in asking whether there is more that can do in any given situation. Am I really likely to get the sack if I question a comment from my boss or an unfair company policy? Will my friend really send me to Coventry if I challenge him about his sexist language, and even if he does, do I need people like that as friends?

Deeds always make more difference than just words.

[messyisthenewtidy]

Basil, your post really resonates with me because I feel that way about my DF. After years of trying to reason with him, to get him to engage on the issue, I've realized that it's never going to happen and getting worked up about it only upsets me.

It's sad, but whenever a man has stuck up for women's equality/rights I've felt inordinately grateful to them, and looked upon them as some kind of hero! Just a sign of how pathetically desperate I am ....

[BasilFoulTea]

Yes that's it isn't it Kritiq - you choose your battles and I totally understand that people can't fight every single one and there are times you just have to put up with shit. It's recognising which battles you can fight and which you can't, and not thinking that because you can't fight all of them, you can't fight any.