Does reading about male abuse affect how you see men?

[miloben]

Hi everyone. I've been reading through almost all the topics over a number of nights and I have learned an awful lot about women's fight against abuse and disadvantage, as well as male privilege. Though I have been a feminist for several years, ever since I worked in SE Asia and saw how much work women did compared to the men, I kinda had it on the back burner, and was a half hearted feminist - one in name only if that makes sense. Then I had a baby girl, and because of my daughter really, I have become interested in the kind of lives women have and can expect to have.

I very much love learning about feminism and feel strongly about teaching my daughter (and new born son) about the world we live in and the struggles women face. However, I think I am becoming a bit resentful towards men. I HATE how hardly any of them speak out about it...I even found myself saying to my friend how great David Schwimmer was when I heard he spoke out against rape...until I thought to myself that is what ALL men should be doing, but don't, and he isn't so great.

I have a wonderful father, husband, brother...all the men in my life in fact are pretty terrific, yet because of so many other men's abuse of women and their disinterest in stopping it, I think I am starting to harbour a resentment towards men as a collective group. Hell, if I'm honest, I would say I don't like men very much right now. And as I have a little son, I know this is wrong. My husband, despite being a feminist, has just voiced his concern that I am beginning to be very critical of men in general and derogatory. He is right about that. I just feel so ANGRY!!!

I am just wondering if any of you have gone through this and what you did to change how you viewed men. The last thing I want is to be consumed by hatred like the misogynists I deplore. Thank you very much, and I hope I haven't waffled on too much!!

[sunshineandbooks]

Dinah maybe not, but if you take a look at all the battles for women's equality - past and present - and total up the number of men and women involved in them, you are going to find one thing: there are very, very few men involved. Most are female. Despite coming from the oppressed group.

And none of the historic achievements made by women would have come to pass if they hadn't had support. While it only takes a few brave and determined people to start a campaign, for it to be successful it has to achieve popular support. Women did support it in the main, though there were many and notable exceptions.

The idea of 'men as a group' and 'women as a group' are pretty central to any discussion of a feminist, sociological or anthropological nature.

[DinahMoHum]

i think it stands to reason that the most vocal in any cause will be the people most affected

[MoreBeta]

It also stands to reason that people least likely to tackle it are those who benefit most from the status quo.

Then there are a bunch of people in the middle, the majority, who are either unaffected or not affected enough to want to risk their social status, their job, their wellbeing. It is about payoffs and incentives in the end.

Is there a big enough payoff to me if I use my time and face the risks associated to speak out? Will it do any good if I do? Those two questions are what most most people ask themselves and by 'people' I do mean men and women.

A current example is the redundancy situation.

Your female colleague got made redundant unfairly because she is on maternity leave. You kept your job. Do you really march into the bosses office and demand (s)he reinstates your colleague? Will your boss reverse the decision? I very much doubt it. Most people just feel bad for their colleague, offer sympathy, feel guilty, keep their head down and thank goodness it didnt happen to them. I have seen this happen often.

It is wrong but life moves on.

[BasilFoulTea]

But there aren't any "people in the middle" here Beta.

There are men and there are women.

There are no middle people

And the difference between most us'n'them situations, is that there is no us and them with men and women. Men have wives, mothers and daughers who can be sacked when they're pregnant and lose their homes. Women's welfare is uniquely bound up with men's welfare. Men are affected when their mothers, wives and sisters get raped (not so much when their daughters do unless it's when they're still living in the house, because they prob won't know about it and won't notice the effect on intimacy, sex life etc.)

That's why it's so mysterious, that men are not more involved in women's struggle for equality. I wonder if more white people were involved in the Civil Rights movement or the Anti-apartheid movement, than men have been in women's struggle (pro rata)?

[BasilFoulTea]

And sorry but there are no women who are completely unaffected by sexism, even if they kid themselves it doesn't apply to them. And no men either, I'd say. Our culture affects all of us.

[DinahMoHum]

I think society has made it difficult for anyone to protest about anything unfortunately. Its quite a high price to pay for speaking out if youd likely lose your job, especially with workers rights being eroded further and further all the time. The main people who benefit from the pay divide are not men as a whole, as the vast majority of the workforce dont have a pay divide. Its only really apparent the further up the ladder and classes you go, and these people of course have a vested interest in keeping things as they are, especially now under the tories.

Being made redundant on maternity leave is illegal btw

[MooncupGoddess]

Humans are social animals and as a species we have a lot invested in keeping in with our group. I don't think we should be surprised that people (of both sexes) are so unwilling to 'rock the boat'.

But - we should resist all attempts to present our behaviour in this respect a binary choice. In real life it's not a choice between keeping one's head down and ignoring injustice OR marching into the MD's office and making a massive, job-risking fuss. Actually it's quite possible to make one's position clear with a careful email, by politely challenging a sexist comment, or even just a face.

Bigoted people are just as affected by the need to keep in with the group as the rest of us. So if we gradually, consciously work towards challenging the majority view (as with attitudes to homosexuality over the last 50 years) then we'll bring a lot of people with us.

[BertieBotts]

Brilliantly put, Basil, about burning at the stake vs laundry. I'd never thought of it like that but that's really clarified something for me.

[Nyac]

Have you seen women getting unfairly treated in the workplace MoreBeta?

[Dworkin]

Spot on Basil re men appropriating leisure time off the backs of women - it's no different as to why there is wage inequality.

MoreBeta: I can understand your point about turning a blind eye to a work colleague, but if that was your live-in partner then you would feel more outrage, surely?

[DinahMoHum]

id certainly judge someone, male or female if they turned a blind eye to a blatant case of illegal discrimination, such as the example given of a person being made redundant during maternity leave. Not necessarily expecting them to go into the boss all guns blazing, but providing support to the woman concerned and pointing her in the right direction for legal assistance etc

[KRITIQ]

Basil, your 13:20 post explains pretty clearly why lots of women don't get more het up about sexism. On a personal level, I think we simply don't want to conclude that the reason we didn't get a job or promotion, why we were talked to in a patronising way by some on in an official role, why we're being ignored in conversations, even why we're victims of violence in some situations, is because of our sex.

If you didn't get the job because you weren't qualified, you can study or gain experience. If you were patronised or ignored, you can be more assertive. If you are victimised, you might even think you can stop it happening again by avoiding certain places, people, behaviours, styles of dress, etc.

These are things you can at least tell yourself you can do something about. If all these things happen simply because you are female, you can feel bloody powerless. So I do understand why many women rationalise or deny when they are on the sharp end of sexism - and by extension, to keep up that premise, they have to rationalise or deny that it happens to other women as well. It's not noble, but I can figure out why it happens. At the risk of name checking Right Wing Women by Andrea Dworkin yet again :), she explains this really, really clearly.

So yes, it's the women who believe they are unaffected by sexism, who believe there are more important things to think of that are in their interest (e.g. getting a job, keeping a job, being accepted, etc.) who either remain complacent about or even actively deny the presence of sexism.

Not sure about the comparison between the number of white people who fought apartheid and the number of men who fight for women's rights. There were white people who opposed the apartheid regime in South Africa, but still held racist views. Similarly, there are men who are involved in specific campaigns that benefit women (e.g. reproductive rights, against domestic violence, for more women in public life, etc.) but they may or may not still hold sexist views in other spheres, iyswim.

[miloben]

Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to answer , and also for all the words of support!! It is a big help as well to know that my current resentment and anger towards men is, although unfair to a degree and unhealthy for me and people around me, pretty common at first, and shared by some of you.

I can very much relate to the poster who said that sometimes she wishes she could turn the clock back so that all the abuses and degradations and barriers women face just because we are women, don't really register. It DOES hurt and it is painful to see the utter injustice...like the world is split into two - the men who have and the women who have not. I thought about trying to forget about feminism but I know I could never and will never do that. It's like it has a hook and won't let go.

I certainly do expect men to do more. I will never know how they read about rape, assault, how women are treated in other countries, sexual harassment, and so on, and not want to DO something about it!! I mean, it is MEN who are hurting women, and they are also men and this abuse is carried out in THEIR name!!

You know, whenever there is a crime committed by a woman (like Vanessa George for example), you can almost guarantee women will feel embarrassed or ashamed, and many say so...that they are ashamed to be a woman. I don't go along with that, by the way, but at least the awareness is there. But men commit a HUGE amount of crimes and offences against women, yet other men seem incapable of feeling embarrassed or annoyed enough to want to do something to stop their fellow men hurting women. Their cry is most likely to be 'Where are the feminists (they mean women) and what are they doing'! It's pathetic! It's like they walk about in a bubble. And I don't really buy too much that their obliviousness is an excuse, now that I have thought about it. If it were women hurting men, I would become educated enough about the issue so I could take a stand. But most of them don't do this!

It isn't a great analogy, but I see it like someone who eats fois gras yet pleads ignorance on the suffering involved as if that makes it alright. I just can't accept that excuse...where people (men in this case) do what they want because they don't realise the cost to others. I think - become educated!! LEARN about the atrocities happening in your name and take a stand and STOP benefitting!!

I have also seen women be compicit in insulting and degrading their own gender...like a colleague of mine who always says how much she prefers male bosses (despite our current female boss treating her better and being more supportive than all our previous male bosses). It is frustrating and I get highly annoyed...mainly because I imagine sexist men sitting around listening to women talk like that and rubbing their hands in glee at having their work being done for them. I can kinda understand women taking this stance - like the crumbs from the master's table is better than nothing - but I wish women would not do this as it plays into those men's hands who would HATE to see women united together.

I know I am coming across as a real bitter, angry person, and right now I am. On the flipside, I feel I am developing a kind of loyalty to women and feelings of support. Someone mentioned that men appear at times to be more loyal to masculinity than they are to humanity, and I wonder if I am the female version!!!!

Thanks again to everyone who posted!!! :)

[Sanjeev]

If the situations were reversed, i.e. women had the upper hand in society, what do you think they would do?

[Warlock]

Miloben I do what I can within my social circle,with my daughters,with my colleagues and with the kids that I teach. I abhor what men do to women in many parts of the world but I will have have most impact with the people with whom I have face to face contact. I support action groups and charities but I know that my greatest influence is much closer to home.

[AyeRobot]

If tens of thousands of men were being forcibly penetrated by women every year and 2 men a week were dying at the hands of their current of former partners?

I imagine that there would be a lot of soul-searching going on.

We don't want supremacy, btw, if that's what you're worried about. Equality and liberation from male violence, or the threat of it, would do us fine.

[blackcurrants]

Sanjeev other than reassuring you that women could abuse positions of power too, what does that question bring to the discussion? Does entertaining the hypothetical somehow make men's failure to stop oppressing women less distasteful to you ?
I'm curious.

[Sanjeev]

Blackcurrants, I will give you an honest answer. I was training at the swimming pool tonight, and mid-set, it popped into my head.

I have been mulling feminism over in my head for a few weeks now, since I happened upon this board. I find swimming training can be a bit monotonous, so I tend to have stuff running round my head during the longer sets. This just popped up!

[Sanjeev]

Ayerobot. I think you over-estimate the 'togetherness' of men in your last post. I think that unless stuff like that is happening to people close to us, we view it as just more shitty acts by shitty people in a shitty world.

Take the murder of 9 children by the American soldier this week. It's horrific, but even as a dad, I can't assume outrage on behalf of the family of the dead. I can sympathise, and wish it had never happened, and wish that the soldier had been never put in that position/place, but as for feeling anything else....well, what would that achieve?

[Sanjeev]

I have just read that back (my post to AyeRobot). It reads wrong on reflection. It's my point of view - I cannot assume that it is what other men think. If I had to guess, I think it's what they might think (if you get me!).

[Sanjeev]

Here's another thought that popped up. How much male on female violence is due to a man seeking out a woman because she is a woman (i.e. misogyny), and how much is due to the fact that she is just 'there', the nearest person? Are men pre-disposed to batter anything in range when it takes their fancy, or do they have a mean, cowardly inner switch that allows them to simmer and store their rage until they get home to their weaker partner? Are there similar studies on male-on-male violence within gay couples? For example, if 75 per cent of women in couples are battered, and 75 per cent of males are also battered in gay households, then we could say that it isn't misogyny, but a non-sexist violent tendency.

I am not even sure why this matters, but it seemed to at the time! Maybe people could shed some light, if you know of any research.

[NarkedPuffin]

Remember to come up for air frequently.

[Sanjeev]

Here's another! I have said in other threads that I try to teach my son and daughter by example. How my wife and I treat each other should be a blueprint for their relationships. I have been told that while the right thing to do, the huge effect of outside influences - peer groups, the patriarchal society we live in, media images, porn etc. - will far outweigh our domestic bliss .

So, how do feminists like the OP feel about this? All your love, all your efforts, teachings and examples are dwarfed by the forces around you. It doesn't mean we should stop, but does it make you feel a bit, well, helpless? The more rad fem you read, the more you must feel that one day, your son will be lost to you, and he will just be another guy to be spoken about on pages like this.

[Sanjeev]

Narked -

I am glad someone hasn't gone to bed. I am waiting up to go and collect my daughter in 30 mins. This stuff just flies round my head some days!

[Nyac]

Sanjeev are you aware that you're spamming the thread.

What's your interest in this section?