Is it possible to be have faith and be a feminist?...

[onelittlefish]

This is a questions I am asking myself because recently I have started to feel more like a feminist in my view of world. However, I am also a christian and there are some elements that I find hard to reconcile with with feminism - particularly, where the bible says that a woman should submit to her husband. Also, most of my Christian friends seem to be stay at home mothers; not something I have an objection to in itself but I think they perceive that the Bible says they should.

However, there are parts that are fully conducive to feminism: there is one part that say one person should not objectify another - this something that is very relevant to feminism and goes to it's roots as women have always been objectified by men.

So please answer, do you think it is possible to have faith and be a feminist?

I could assume you were a dim misguided fool? WTF?
I could be trying to work out how feminists justify following a patriarchal God? One that did not create man and woman equal? I could wonder why you think women bare children and not men, or both.

If you dont believe in God then is there any point arguing whether s/he is patriarchal or not?

Really? Atheists are now being told that they are not allowed to understand the justification of believers? That sounds like a big fat cop out to me. (How utterly unusual for believers)

Well ... surely, if you don't believe in God, you reckon people who do are incorrect, misguided? I'd love it if you believed I was a bright misguided genius, but it doesn't really matter either way. I was just trying to ask, what's the logic behind your objections?

You see, I really do not believe that God is patriarchial. You seem to think that's 'bending the rules' ... but we do that all the time as feminists, right?

I think women bear children because, in a proper, equal world, this would not be a disadvantage. I don't believe - and I don't think you do either? - that humans naturally evolved in such a way that women must be inferior because of their reproductive capacities. I believe the system got fucked, and we can and should straighten it out and stop the patriarchy from making women's reproductive capacities an excuse to oppress us.

posie, I don't have any issue with atheists wanting to understand anything they're interested in. I just don't follow your logic. Saying I don't follow your logic isn't the same as telling you you're not entitled to an opinion, so I don't know why you would be assuming that.

In answer to the original question, I would say, yes, it is. But for me personally, when there's a conflict, faith wins rather than feminism.

IME, a lot of of feminist critique of my faith (Judaism) comes from ignorance. For e.g., traditional Judaism gets a lot of flack because men pray in a minyan (group of ten) and women aren't - you don't get female minyans. BUT, men are required to pray in groups of ten as they are considered to be less spiritually aware than women are, and where the minyan originated (the ten spies came back with a bad report etc.), it was a punishment for doubting, while the women didn't and thus were not punished and can pray on their own. Likewise, women aren't required to wear tefillin (phylacteries) because it's thought that women don't need a daily reminder that they're not G-d (whereas men do - it's also why they were tsitsit - a fringed garment, and a yarmulke - skull cap) and in some more esoteric writings, it's thought that women have internal phylacteries (the womb and ovaries) and therefore don't need an external reminder. I even saw on here someone say oh, men aren't allowed to touch women blah blah blah, ignoring that likewise women aren't allowed to touch men (this is if you are shomer negillah, which means you don't touch adults of the opposite sex unless you're related or married).

As a feminist I have little choice but to live in a patriarchy, but I don't have to believe in God and as that's a choice I do wonder how people square it with themselves.
Do you believe in creation? Or that God created humans?

Interesting. I think I do have to believe in God, I don't think it's a choice for me though perhaps it is for some?

I accept evolution as the best scientific theory we have, if that's what you're asking.

I suppose as far as logic goes I don't believe anyone can be logical and believe in God, so perhaps being a feminist and follower is just another illogical position.

That could be.

Can I ask again ... how come it bothers you that you think religious feminists 'bend' the rules of their religion? Why do you think religious rules should be exempt from challenge by feminists?

Bothers me? Did I say that?

This is not a discussion where I have to pick apart what 'bothers me' about religion, that would virtually fill half the internet, but if it's possible to have faith and be feminist. Of course it is, but you can't be really committed to either.

I'm sorry, I assumed it bothered you because you commented on it, and exclaimed '! Seems that anyone can bend their own religion to suit themselves, actually it seems that EVERYONE bends religion to suit themselves, feminists too!'

That exclamation suggests to me you think this is in some way remarkable, as opposed to a normal feminist response to patriarchial structure, to question, bend, and (hopefully, eventually) break it.

If you do not expect feminists to object to patriarchy ... what do you expect them to do? I'm committed to my feminism, and this is why - unlike you - I find it only basic to expect feminists, religious or not, to take issue with religion when it is misogynistic.

I don't post on these boards often, but I am interested that in a discussion about feminism and faith, that pagan religions and Hinduism haven't had a mention, as both feature Goddesses. Judaism has the Shekinah and the Holy Spirit is perceived by some as being the Shekinah/female part of the trinity.

'but if it's possible to have faith and be feminist. Of course it is, but you can't be really committed to either.'

Thats pretty offensive acually. I am committed to my faith and my feminism and how dare you tell me I am not.
Agree with what Abs says.

Abs says faith trumps feminism.....

For me Posie. That doesn't apply to everyone. Likewise, because you think that logic and faith don't mesh, doesn't mean that everyone does.

That's why I said "But for me personally, when there's a conflict, faith wins rather than feminism"

I agree that logic and faith don't mix - as Abs says, for me personally.

For me, feminism helps me work out how to practice my faith. But faith is not an ideology or a rule book, it's something I have, and I can feel it is there - they are different kinds of thing.

Abs, Kal said she agrees with you.

Strangely I always assume that my opinion is 'me personally'!

I agreed with Abs description of how certain practices may appear to be excluding women but actually dont and are pretty feminist. But to someone without faith they wouldnt make sense at all and would 'look' patriarchal.

I think it's important to acknowledge that some practices appear to be excluding women because they are excluding women - and that women do not have to accept this, or see only two choices (acceptance or losing their faith) - we can also question and try to find a way to change things.

My religion has a very long history of trying to change rules so as to include marginalized groups. It also has a history of monumental oppression of women. I'm sad about that. But then, the country I live in and the legal system I vote in, the science and the medicine, also have histories of monumental oppression of women. And women fought back.

But for the practices I described, from the outside it looks like women have the raw deal, but in reality, they don't. Women can pray in a minyan if they want to, but they don't have to. Men have to find 9 other men to pray with 3 times a day. It's quite a burden that women don't have to bear - in the mornings, DP has to get up earlier and head off to synagogue, whereas I, happy as larry, can start and finish when I want, get to go at my own pace etc. Likewise, women aren't required to put on tefillin etc. they can if they want to, but it's an extra burden that women aren't obligated to bear - isn't that better? Maybe I'm just lazy, but I'm not going to take on extra stuff I don't have to, just because men do. (actually, I am lazy, but that's a separate discussion)

True DoomCat. But it is for the women within the faith to change things, and many fight to do so.
(this is just faith related stuff)
Other things which religions claimed to govern back when the church ruled the country, like abortion and contraception is a fight for all women.
Actually, now I'm geting muddled. I know what I mean but am pretty inarticulate as I have terrible insomnia!

Is it true jewish men have to pray the required prayers Abs, but a woman can just sigh? A friend who is a conservative jew told me this. I've sighed enough for a million prayers

abs - yes, sorry, my point wasn't meant to discount what you said, just to offer a perspective on the other situations when women do get marginalized.

Btw, I agree with worldgonecrazy it is interesting we've not ended up discussing goddess-worship. Maybe the people who belong to goddess-worshipping religions are just very secure feminists?!