is it possible to be a sahm and a feminist?

[lottielou39]

I've had periods of being a sahm, and am now (after working for the past few years) returning to the role of sahm. For many reasons, but mostly because managing the care of three small children is a logistical nightmare and because I love being there for them all the time without having to juggle work around them. I've no issue with using childcare because I've done so in the past quite happily, but childcare times 3 (one of whom is a small baby) is not easy.
I've found the working situation harder now my eldest two are getting to the age where holiday clubs no longer accept them, but they're still too young to be left home alone all day. So after much thought, I've realised that I need/want to be a sahm again and my husband supports this 100%.
In the past, I've had women tell me that:

1. you need to earn your own money for self esteem/independence etc.
2. only women without degrees/careers stay at home. I've spoken to a few feminists about this online in the past and the feeling I get is that whilst they support a womans right to choose to stay at home (if she has this luxury) it's never a choice they'd make because it would conflict with their ideology. What do you think?

I'm sure most men do occupy the middle ground. But I also think that women are conditioned to accept an awful lot of twattery Like unequal amounts of free time within a marriage with children, the bulk of childcare outside of working hours even when the children are preschool (so a full time job), family free time built around his hobby, etc.

I also think there is a lot of social conditioning for young women to fall into the whole must get married, must have kids, should stay home, should be reliant on a man thing.

Of course I don't mean that every man is a twat or behaves like one. But the vast majority of people do have the capacity to behave like a twat and I think that a person in a position of economic and possibly social power has the capacity/opportunity to behave badly in a much more destructive way than the person with less. You could say it is prudent to protect yourself from possible twattery. From personal experience I know a number of men who have seemed like great guys until the relationship ended and then behaved very, very badly.

The best way to protect yourself financially is to be well educated and have access to good jobs with prospects.

Wanting that for girls (and TBH an improvement in life chances for everyone who doesn't get them at the moment) is a fine feminist aim.

Affordable childcare would help as well.

The answer to women losing independence when they have children is to restructure society in how it thinks and what it does so that is no longer the default.

The idea that husbands (and OH's? boyfriends?) pay their wives is terrible.

But it's OK for ex-husbands to pay their wives? That's not terrible?

I think being a SAHM without being a feminist would be miserable.

You have think there is value to what you do or else how can you value yourself?

I do have a problem with people (on here) slagging SAHMs off and I believe they call it "pissfarting about all day" IIRC but I am confident in my decision.

SAHm isn't a decision for life anyway now, is it? I have been one on and off.

Yes.

I have to work harder to model feminist behaviour to my DCs than if I worked outside the house/ long hours. Not being martyred but expecting acknowledgement. Encouraging them to prioritise their work, but not disdain the domestic.

Are ex-husbands paying their wives? I thought they were providing for their children.

Chandon, me too. I've noticed that more and more. SAHM's get plenty of snide comments on MN. And don't get me started on the 'I'm setting my daughter a good example because I work' routine. My own Mother worked two jobs when I was growing up, she had no choice; and all it taught me was that she was knackered and grouchy 24/7.

I feel that my choices are curtailed and that I am forced to be SAHM, which is probably what makes me a strong feminist.

Yes. I am one.

Maintenance usually means paying ex-wives to take care of the children. It just seems odd to me that, if you're living with a wage-earning partner, the financial support for the household, children, etc. is expected to happen out of the goodness of their heart but it's only if the living together stops that the same partner can be pursued legally to hand over the cash.

Lottie, I also dislike the sentiment of 'I'm setting my daughter a good example by working.' I think it made a bit more sense in, say, 1975, not so much now where women are overwhelmingly in the workforce and girls will see this growing up.

When I hear this, I often think of a friend of mine, who sadly lost her mum recently to ovarian cancer. She was a diplomat's wife and they moved often, so she didn't work and devoted herself to family life.

My friend loved her more than anything in the world, she was her best friend, a constant source of comfort and laughs. My friend herself is amazingly kind, supportive, gentle and giving, and she attributes all that she is to her mum and the ample time they spent together.

The implication that women who don't work aren't setting a good example is really offensive, I think. Surely there are many ways to set good examples.

SQ I totally agree that it is a fine feminist aim. What do you do if you are well educated, had good job prospects and then became a SAHM for a number of years out of choice. What can you do to protect yourself from the possibility of poverty etc with the understanding that... What is it now?... Half? Of all marriages end in divorce?

I've made a number of choices as a SAHM that have seriously impacted my future earning potential.

You have a very unusual and depressing view of relationships cogito.

When people are together in partnerships the norm is for money and work to be shared.
Currently the model when there is a divorce is that assets are shared, as they were in marriage, although I think that things like children mean that further calculations are done before distribution.
And if the woman is wealthier it is her who pays the man (ask xenia!)

Maybe my view is unusual but I prefer to call it 'cynical' rather than 'depressing'. :) I just happen to think a little cynicism is a healthy counterbalance to all the romantic ideals that young women (especially) are bombarded with. The norm should be for money and work to be shared but it clearly isn't in a lot of cases.

I was a SAHM for 6 years.

I now have two part time jobs and am studying for a second degree (should be writing essay right now

Since I started working I think DP and i have a more equal relationship - he has had to take more responsibility for the children and the housework, we have had to become more of a team.

That said, of course you can be a SAHM and a feminist. But I would be questioning just why it is so bloody hard to work and have children, I believe most women would work full or part time if there was affordable childcare available and family friendly work policies such as those in Norway and Denmark.

That would be a blow for women's rights, not the idea you should be struggling every day just to prove some sort of point.

I take your point, but I think cynicism often leads to low expectations

I used to be very cynical in relationships. I also had a lot of bad relationships. (Not sure of the causality there!)

I prefer to see any hint of twattishness as an aberration, not the manifestation of some inherent male character. That lets me treat it very seriously as something not to be tolerated.

I think seeing twattishness as more or less inevitable reinforces the idea that women just have to put up with it.

Lottielou -

Not having a go at your choices and the situation you find yourself in, but it is really common that women give up work because their husbands earn a hell of a lot more and do uncompromisable jobs -- it is not like it is a randomn 50/50 chance that it ends up that way... so I hope you don't mind me discussing it as an example of the dilemma.

I just wonder how we as feminists can see this as an ok situation and a good outcome?

I mean, at your DH's workplace if they don't offer part time options, less than 12 hour days etc... they are essentially saying they don't care if they exclude mothers from the workplace, and make fathers family lives difficult. And it seems like you are saying there is no way to challenge that.

Its like there is a chain of links between his workplace, his job, your household, your ability to work, and your long term prospects for financial independence. And because his workplace isn't prepared to compromise it goes down through the links in the chain so that the person who has to compromise is you /the wife.

What if the chain worked the other way? If the family said that the wife's long term career prospects matter, therefore you need to maintain some link to the workplace and not give up indefinately, so that the husband has to consider that having 3 children and working 12 hour days is not compatible, and his workplace has to find ways to accommodate that, rather than assume that everyone has a wife at home?

its about time parenting and housework was valued equally as paid work. The country needs both sorts to function

The Nordic countries are often held up as good examples of a fairer society. They probably are. The problem with the UK is that we want what they have, but we don't want to pay for it.

They have higher taxes to pay for benefits and family support. In the UK, no mainstream party will stand up and propose a system that will lead to higher taxes, because nobody will vote for it. So until we - men and women - change our attitude towards taxation, the problems highlighted in here will not change much.

I'm a SAHM come student, I'm half way through a psychology degree. I feel like our lives are on hold for my DP's career, he works long hours and for 7 days a week, I wonder whether we'll ever have a normal family life.

He manages the finances and usually one a month (though not always) throws about £100 my way for holding things together at home. Its my degree which keeps me going, for me its like plan B as things feel so dire sometimes.

However I do have a crisis of confidence from time to time and feel I'll never be able to do anything to match up to his career. Can anyone reassure me that my studying is worthwhile or would I be better to give it up and concentrate on the job in hand, being a SAHM.

You may as well ask is possible for a working mother not to be a feminist/ The answer to that would be yes as well.

SAHM - is a role not a defining characteristic, I was not defined by my job when I worked so I certainly do not expect to be defined by my role now. For me one of the aspects of feminism I hold most dear is it provides a challenge to being defined by your gender or your position in society.

I too am half way through a psychology degree!

Am also trying to write essay and am procrastinating on mumsnet. essay due tomorrow.
Studying is worthwhile, get through it and you will always have that degree and a way of starting a career if that is what you want.

lottie - the feminists you have been talking to are wrong.

I am SAHD and now just about to go back to WOHD. Now that SAHD/WOHD decision for me has definitley not got anything to do with feminism. Its what I and my family need that counts. Just the same as you.

"usually one a month (though not always) throws about £100 my way for holding things together at home."

Throws? The reason your confidence is suffering is because things are far too casual, your contribution is not being valued or rewarded and you're being taken for granted. Expanding your education is always worthwhile, and your career has to match up to no-one and nothing but your own aspirations. What's missing from the picture is proper support from your partner. Everyone's just been telling me that the 'norm' is to share the family income equally along with the household tasks.... It's not the norm, as you well know, but it's what you should be aiming for.

Thanks for the encouragement littlealbert, I'm also working on an assignment (I have a leave it until the last minute mentality), bloody MN always distracts me! Off to make a then maybe I'll tackle it again... what is your assignment on?