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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Grrrrrrr, "what about the menz" comments on FB

27 replies

AnnieLobeseder · 08/03/2012 21:45

I posted a link on my FB to a story about how Women's Aid is losing funds from the government and many refuges are being closed down. I commented:

"Oh look, not content with removing the livelihood of disabled people, the government are also cutting off support for abused women and children. Slapped around by your husband? Need somewhere safe to go? Tough. Just stay home and put up with it like a good little women."

What is the one and only comment? From a friend of DH's:
"Agree but can I just point out that men are also the victims of abuse!"

And this got a 'like' from a lesbian friend of mine!

WTAF?! I don't want to start an argument with either of them on how the menz are really not important, as that will just detract from the actual issue. But it's just so frustrating!

How is that fact that some men are abused relevant to resources for abused women being removed anyway?

Sorry, just needed to rant here with people who will understand rather than get into a bunfight on FB.

OP posts:
Tortington · 08/03/2012 21:47

you need to say this

indeed i agree with you, they do. they too will have no where to go.

EdithWeston · 08/03/2012 21:49

There was a piece about DV on BBC Breakfast TV earlier where a spokesperson from one of the charities (sorry, can't remember which) made exactly the same comment. What he said is, regrettably, true.

AnnieLobeseder · 08/03/2012 21:52

In the same way that some women are CEOs. But that's not where the big issue lies.

OP posts:
PattiMayor · 08/03/2012 21:52

Of course it's true. But it's about as relevant as talking about white victims of racism. It happens but it's absolutely dwarfed by racism against people of colour. It's a silencing technique

Moln · 08/03/2012 21:53

but it's true, men are abused and there is even less support for them and an even greater attitude that they should just put up with it.

he did say he agreed with you didn't he.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 08/03/2012 21:54

This happened EVERY single time DV and refuges was discussed on Netmums.
And I mean every single time.

Of course violence against men is as dreadful as any other domestic abuse.
I just do not understand why there is this pavlovian response whenever DV against women is mentioned.

FreudianSlipper · 08/03/2012 21:58

yes it seems to be a crime to support dv in relation to only women

the fact is that the vast majority of perpetrators of dv are men not women, it is women and children who are by far suffering the most, two women a week are dying yet we still have to balance it out when we try to bring recognition to this

makes my blood boil that in 2012 woman can still not highlight the violence that thousands of women face every day without having someone trying to make them justify not highlighting the problems men face too. Why for once can we not just focus on women and the needs that these women have

EdithWeston · 08/03/2012 21:58

This response can (and I'd say should) be harnessed in the greater aim of ramming home the message that it is unacceptable full stop.

PattiMayor · 08/03/2012 22:01

Men absolutely shouldn't have to put up with it. No one is stopping anyone from starting a campaign to support them though

sunshineandbooks · 08/03/2012 22:01

Well both men and women will have nowhere to go soon so that's ok then - equal opportunity to be forced to stay at home and be abused. Hmm

The comment is not relevant because AFAIK WA support women-only refuges. Male ones are run by entirely different organisations.

AnnieLobeseder · 08/03/2012 22:04

This is how the conversation has gone. Am I handling it okay?

Joe Bloggs:
Agree but can I just point out that men are also the victims of abuse!

Annie:
Um, Joe, "Oh but what about the poor men?" is rarely a good argument to make to an angry feminist.

Joe Bloggs
All I look to do is speak the truth

Annie:
But how is that relevant to support being removed from women?

Joe Bloggs:
It is not specifically, and i did agree with your original point, I do agree that it is terrible that these refuges are being closed. I merely wanted to say that men can also be the victims of domestic abuse.

Annie:
I didn't say that they weren't, and I can't help but feel that your comment just detracts from the issue at hand. But if we must connect the two issues, if services for the majority of the abused, ie, women, are being removed, then imagine how meagre they will be now for the abused minority, ie, men.

Joe Bloggs
Agreed

OP posts:
EdithWeston · 08/03/2012 22:07

I'd say it is relevant as it is a statement of support that DV is unacceptable. Is the best way forward to denigrate those who share that view, or to welcome it and ask them to further the aims of providing refuges for victims by campaigning to support those that exist and also move together for more?

EdithWeston · 08/03/2012 22:09

X-post with your update - looks like you're doing some excellent harnessing to common purpose and gathering wider support.

KRITIQ · 08/03/2012 22:16

Patti is right. In my experience, it tends to be a silencing, or at least a diversionary technique. Nearly 20 years ago, I was working for Women's Aid and every time I told someone what I did, I could guarantee I would get one or both of these responses.

  • I don't understand why women don't just leave.
  • But, it happens to men, too.

I think both come from seriously not wanting to believe the reality of domestic abuse. So, one way to let yourself mentally off the hook is to make it seem like the victims are partly culpable, should take responsibility for their safety. Another is to make it seem less bad by pointing out men are victims, too, so it becomes even stevens, nowt to worry about then.

Yes, men can experience abuse from partners, both male and female. It's rotten and you won't find a single feminist who thinks that is a good thing. Although they are fewer in numbers, no one is saying they shouldn't have understanding and support that's appropriate to their needs. But, by far the greatest proportion of victims of abuse are women and the perpetrators are mostly men. Many of the women also have responsibility for the care of children or other dependants and generally are less likely to have the same economic resources to call upon as men generally will.

According to the most recently published British Crime Survey (January 2012 - figures for 2010-11), 47% of women who are unlawfully killed are killed by a current or former male partner. Only 5% of men are unlawfully killed by a current or former female partner. (Bear in mind, BCS is anonymous and self-reported, so all the stuff about men being more unlikely to report abuse to authorities than women is "levelled out" in this form of study - and I'm sceptical about it being "easier" or "more accepted" for a woman to say she's been abused by a partner than it is for a man - that's anecdotal rather than factual.)

So folks, there IS a difference in the magnitude of domestic abuse by gender, however hard one tries to make it look like a quid pro quo.

If I were suffering from one chronic illness, and someone started a discussion about another chronic illness, I wouldn't feel justified in coming along and saying, "well don't forget that some people have x condition as well as y you know." Same thing applies here.

I have actually known both men and women who have experienced abuse from partners, and it's shit, just shit. But, none of them have felt the need to make a competition out of who's suffered the worst. What I don't understand is why so many of those who "advocate" for abused men, seem so often to argue that Women's Aid and other support organisations for women get "too big a share" and men's organisations should have some of it. If they were genuine in their concern about ending violence in all relationships, surely they'd recognise how inadequate resources are for women victims and shout for MORE resources for ALL victims of abuse, not grabbing for the crumbs of funding Women's Aid, Refuge and other services have to get by on.

BeeBawBabbity · 09/03/2012 07:44

Well said KRITIQ

BelleCurve · 09/03/2012 08:19

Completely besides the point i know, but how would someone self-report that they had been unlawfully killed?

KRITIQ · 09/03/2012 09:05

The self reporting was in relationship to a different part of the British Crime Survey, related to reporting incidence of abuse in a relationship. Apologies if that was unclear. In my earlier post. It was late :)

Archemedes · 09/03/2012 09:45

It seems she was just pointing out men are also victims, maybe you could have worded it differently , like :

Victim of domestic violence? tough you'll have to put and shut up as they'll be nowhere to go.

I understand your frustration but I dont think she was actually trying to antagonise you.

WilsonFrickett · 09/03/2012 11:12

YY Kritiq. If I write a fb post in support of, I dunno, Wear it Pink for breast cancer, no one would pop up and say 'men get testicular cancer too'. Of course they do, and of course I would support any work done to cure that disease, raise awareness whatever, but at the moment, I am talking about breast cancer.

Thanks for helping me sort out my head on that - it's bugged me for years that 'what about the menz' is the Pavlovian response but I've never been able to really articulate a response without sounding like I'm 'for' male DV. Which of course, I am not. It's just that female DV is higher up my personal agenda.

KRITIQ · 09/03/2012 12:56

Yes Wilson. In my mind, you have to look and see if this sort of thing crops up when one expresses a view about other issues in other contexts and gets a similar response. If not, you have to question why!

The example you give is interesting because I have actually seen examples where there is an article about breast cancer or cervical cancer in the Guardian and someone pops up in the comments underneath with a, "but what about testicular cancer, or prostate cancer," blethering on about how all the services are there for women, not for men, men don't go to their doctors, men are more embarrassed than women, etc.

But, I can't say I've seen an article about say, Multiple Sclerosis where someone has commented that all the services, all the research, all the treatments are there for MS with next to nothing for other neurological conditions, especially those affecting fewer people.

Can you spot the difference?

If it's an issue that affects only women or primarily women, expect comments on the "what about the menz" line. If it's an issue that affects both (like a specific chronic illness), you probably won't get such challenges.

Similarly, if you take an issue that is ostensibly "gender blind" like welfare reform, and try to argue that the impact on women is disproportionately worse than the impact on men, you'll get red herrings being chucked all over the shop, all insisting that it's the same or even worse for men.

And, not surprisingly, I find you get exactly the same thing when you talk about inequality due to ethnicity, sexual orientation, sometimes even class and disability.

Which brings me back to why this kind of response comes up so often. Maybe it's not done to deliberately antagonise (although I'm convinced sometimes it is,) but I think it is often done to try and "neutralise" uncomfortable feelings that come up when you hear someone's had a crap experience through no fault of their own. It's the equivalent of a, "quick let's change the subject," when a tipsy aunt starts talking about religion during Christmas dinner.

Except, that it means that the original point tends to get lost in the ensuing argument about whether it's "legitimate" to ask about violence against men, or even times I've seen a conversation flip completely to talking about how hard done by men are, how women make up allegations of abuse and rape, etc. etc., so even worse than silencing, even worse than ignoring.

katiegillet · 21/01/2019 13:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 21/01/2019 13:41

I saw a story on FB last week about some scheme to help female victims of domestic violence.
First comment: man saying "great idea, well done".
Second comment: man saying "men who hurt women should be battered"
Third, 4th and 5th comments: women saying "it's not just women who suffer, men do to", etc...
Couldn't believe how flipped round things were.

MagicMix · 21/01/2019 13:47

Link him to Jessica Eaton.

victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/

traceyracer · 21/01/2019 15:21

as I said in another thread, if you aren't amongst the 1% richest in the country don't expect the Tories to do anything for you regardless if you're male or female

elle1111112 · 21/01/2019 17:15

OP I'm sorry this thread her descended into a "What about the menzz" topic as well.

Yes domestic violence happens against men but two women a week are killed from domestic violence in the UK.

Men are (on average) bigger and stronger by 60% so are more able to defend themselves which is why women are more vulnerable to ending up in Hospital and being killed by their partner. If I randomly started attacking my 6ft 15 stone boyfriend he could very easily defend himself. If he attacked me there would be literally nothing I could do. This is why women are more vulnerable and at risk.

What I'm saying is so obvious but I'll still get flamed. Yes men should get help too but they aren't as at risk as women are.

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