How can a parent let their child be beaten by an OH

[JugsyMalone]

I just don't get this. I am a single parent to 2 boys.

I would never be with a partner for one second who hurt my kids. I would batter the bloke back and be straight down the police station. Even if I was mortally afraid I would be out of the house with my kids at the corner shop or anywhere public asap.

But it's always the boyfriend who batters the baby to death. Yes, he's the nutter. But what is wrong with the mother?

....and i share wayyyy to much after a glass of wine....

anyways.

The only thing i have to thank her for is a very high pain threshold.

Right off topic and inappropriate, but you made me laugh, Vicar! Just this evening I was preparing myself to go to the dentist (I have toothache) and reminding myself to big up the pain! Same reason.

i'm really sorry you went through all that vicar. as a police officer what have your experiences with dv been like? what are the challenges you face in prosecuting people and what do you think would help tackle this problem?

some women will do this out of selfishness or a basic kind of weakness that means they just don't feel they can leave - it's very hard not to feel utter contempt for them - i think it's natural in a way to feel that at a gutteral level because we have to reject that kind of behaviour in wanting to be good parents ourselves and not to put our own weaknesses etc ahead of our children's care.

the thing is though how do we protect the weak (and those who are dependent on the weak)? i know no one liked my pedophile analogy because they saw it as infantalising women but the reality is that some adults don't actually make it to emotional maturity or strength or agency. we accept weakness in children - we protect the child who is bullied even if they are totally inept at protecting themselves. when that child turns 18 we then call it an adult and withdraw compassion/protection/etc from it's weakness because it's an adult now. some people remain vulnerable, weak in terms of asserting themselves or exercising their agency and control in their own lives, passive etc. but as an adult they are loathed and punished for it and seen as accountable.

the reality then is that some people aren't strong enough to protect their children or to face the truth about what is going on or to take action against an abusive bully who ends up in their life. we may want to loathe them and call them evil, complicit etc etc but maybe we just don't want to face the reality that yes, unsavoury or not, they are that weak, they have managed to grow into adults without a great deal of strength or belief in their ability to act or change things or say no and take a stand and yes there are evil enough people out there who actually target these people for their own sick agenda because they enjoy torturing, owning, controlling other human beings. the problem is still the evil, sickos who enjoy torturing people and they still need to be what we as a society try to stop and contain because there'll always be weak and vulnerable people and of course they'll always be targeted by the evil people who enjoy controlling and abusing them. of those two groups only one is 'evil' for want of a better word and by it i mean having a taste for cruelty, enjoying what we cannot imagine enjoying, crossing boundaries without compunction that we could not cross.

sorry epic post - it can happen to anyone and we've looked at a lot of reasons and ways that someone who couldn't previously have imagined tolerating this can be worn down into a place of accepting it. but there are also always going to be weak and vulnerable children who grow into weak and vulnerable adults who like it or not do not exercise the same level of agency and capacity to act strongly that we do. even if that causes revulsion they still need our protection from people who would do evil things to the weak. and it is the perpetrators who are 'evil' (as in sick tastes in hurting people) and deserve the fullness of our contempt and the full action of the law.

Vicar, me too. Word for word.

Swallow, brilliant post. But I think we need a 2 pronged solution. Therapy for the bullies who need to learn empathy and deal with their unresolved childhood issues. And therapy for the weak child-like adults, to raise their self esteem and self confidence to a healthy level.

im not sure that therapy would have worked on my step father, and to accept therapy, you have to accept you have a problem - in my step fathers mind i was the problem not him.

as a police officer DV is taken very seriously now - i know that when my injuries came to light as a child back in the 80's, the police did not get involved. only social services did, and they were pretty useless back then.

as a police officer the challenge is often to get the victim to aid the prosecution - often with low level DV the CPS will drop a case if the victim is unwilling to make a complaint. For more serious DV then that tends to be different, but im afraid that officers do get jaded if they go back again and again and again to the same situations, the first step is the victim has to want to help themselves, and often, they just keep going back. Its very difficult. Im in response so my role tends to be lock up the suspect, deal with them, and put a report in for the DV unit. For more serious cases the DV unit will take the case and try to put in place what ever help the victim needs. Response officers are compelled to take "positive action" but of course you cannot live someones life for them. If someone has just had a domestic argument with no offences - i still do a report, and if i have child concerns i can do a report that goes to social services and our public protection unit, but thats my bit done. I often dont hear back, or if i do, i just get a letter saying thanks for raising the concern.

The problem back when i was younger was that my mother never phoned the police as she wasnt the victim when my sf had me to beat. He was never dealt with by the police. When i left, he turned on his own child. When he left, he turned on his wife (my mother)

I cant understand her mindset, other than that she was in complete and total denial. If she didnt admit it - it didnt happen. She never called police. She maintained that he was a good husband and father, and certainly while i was at home, i think she blamed me, she told me not to make her choose between us or i would lose.

Vicar, yes that's true, my dad also thought I was the mad one, not him. But I think he has gained a tiny bit of insight recently (6 years after I cut him out of my life), when he said in a letter to me that he regretted the past. Compare this to my mother, who I cut out of my life at the same time, where she is in complete denial and still believes she was a wonderful parent and she simply cannot comprehend why I want nothing to do with her.

The adult body but child like mind and emotional state that swallow described fits her perfectly. She was and is like a child, not an autonomous adult with the power to make choices about her life. She was another child within our family, not the other adult besides my dad. And it's the same to this day. She has my sisters running around after her and looking after her protectively as if she was their child. My sisters have no idea how dysfunctional this is. Whilst they are looking after her, their mother, who is looking after them, the real children?

Superb posts above, SAF and Vicar.

Jasmine, imo it's naive - and very common in victims - to imagine treatment could cure a malicious bully. My father opened up more to me, too, in ways he didn't to other family members (not even mum). I feel compassion for his pain; it was real enough. But he could have chosen at any time to stop taking it out on other people. In his profession, he was offered therapy - in fact, he was sent to a psychologist at one point - but chose to remain embittered and obnoxious.

That choice isn't a 'choice' as you or I would construe it. It's following what feels like an inner direction to the perpetrator. Most of the men we refer to as feeling 'entitle' to violence are like that. It's unfixable unless you want to try experimental brain surgery.
:(

Vicar I've read posts of your before and been moved by them. You endured so much as a child. . It's immensely to your credit that you've broken that cycle and that you're prepared to talk about it on here, which also goes for everyone else talking from personal experience.

Much as I champion victims of DV and believe we could be doing far more to help them, I really wish more was done to try to prevent it, rather than dealing with the end result. As Vicar sees first hand in her job, for too many women it is too late - they have become completely institutionalised in the role of victim. In these cases, the only option is to remove the child, sadly. But that doesn't mean we should do nothing. Far from it. Prevention MUST involve treating current perpetrators/victims in a way that makes it clear to the NEXT generation that abuse is unacceptable, even if it makes little difference to the perpetrator/victim concerned.

And it needs to go into schools far more. I agree with everything Basil posted earlier. I am horrified at how many local teenagers in my area (fairly well off semi-rural area) have taken onboard the message that love = passion = physical force. DV has, to some extent, been glamourised in popular and teen culture. WE need to find a way of undoing those messages because in many homes the parents will be reinforcing such devastating norms, not countering them.

agreed sunshine - we tend to deal with the symptoms and not the causes. Dysfunction is very often continued from one generation to the next, because if children are brought up knowing nothing else, by what yardstick do they measure their own relationships?

Early intervention would be the key i think to change patterns of behaviour, but thats takes a multi agency approach, and money. pots of money and needs the cooperation of all involved.

a magic wand wouldnt go amiss either....

What a wonderful discussion. Vicar, do you think that the CPS gives in too easily? Is it still the case that in law a wife can refuse to give evidence against her husband?

I imagine that there are as many myths about DV as there are about rape. You can see where the separatists were coming from, can't you? I still think that if the State really saw these issues as serious problems, then the State would put a lot more resource and effort into putting a stop to them. Wonder how many MPs have abused their families?

Quite Cartimandua.

There's a thread in Lone Parents atm, where someone has actually asserted that where LP's claim they're denying access to non-resident fathers because of violence, most of them are making it up.

As bald as that. No research to back it up, no numbers, no evidence. Just sheer, unbridled, unthinking misogyny.

I'm sure the myths about DV are every bit as entrenched as the myths about rape.

I have been hugely impressed by how much the police approach to domestic abuse has changed. Granted there are a few dinosaurs out there who haven't taken the message on board, but they will disappear with time. And while you might feel you don't make much of a difference to the family you visit, a message is being sent to the wider community and children involved - abuse is wrong and can result in you being arrested. I think that's quite powerful. It may take generations to sink in just as the police approach to abuse has taken years to change, but I believe it will work in time.

I agree with that vast sums of money would be required for multi-agency working, but I think it's the only way forward. Police involvement tends to come a little too late. In terms of prevention, much more training needs to be given to those dealing with children or women on a more regular basis, such as:
? Specialist peripatetic staff for secondary schools, who can talk about abuse and the dynamics of abusive relationships.
? A specialist member of staff in all primary schools (possibly combined with the TA role) whose job it is to look for the signs of abuse. Teachers have enough to do already and can't really devote enough time or watchfulness to this.
? A return to the days where HVs see all children regularly rather than those they have identified as 'in need'. Too many children slip through the net this way because quite often mothers who are being abused by their partners or allowing their partners to abuse their children will present a very capable and loving facade to a HV in the short few weeks they see them before being signed off and told to only come back if you have concerns. It's not the HV's fault, it's the new system they've had to adapt because of a decrease in resources.
? A register of DV offenders that is available to midwives, so that they can see if the expectant fathers pose a risk to mother or child. How this would be handled is another debate in itself but I think it should be out there.

A multi-agency approach may cost huge amounts to implement, but it would save money long-term. A task can be carried out just once in a multi-agency framework whereas without co-operation several agencies may end up duplicating the same work, costing 3x as much. Similarly, once the framework was in place, bureaucracy would diminish, as would all the associated costs of maintaining it. And these are just practical savings. The human savings would of course be incalculable.

Another thing that has to change is the law. The police are powerless once they've made their case and handed over evidence. Sentencing needs to be made harsher and perpetrators made examples of in much the same way as knife crime has been tackled. That requires legislative change and a shake up of judicial perceptions.

The biggest thing that needs to change though is cultural perception, which is largely media led. To challenge that requires hard-hitting, government-led campaigns about abuse on a massive scale not dissimilar to those on smoking, as well as more campaigns about the objectification of women and violence in our culture generally.

my cynical note is this - there's always great motivation and investment willingness to prevent crimes against property and corporate interests but very little for dealing with crimes against people, and in particular women.

a country that sends people to prison for non purchase of tv licenses but shows little interest in severely punishing those who beat, rape and otherwise abuse individuals is disturbing to say the least.

i liken it to drink driving sunshine - it's really not long ago at all that it was seen as perfectly acceptable, harmless and normal. with the police cracking down on it, severe sentencing and advertising campaigns there has been a massive shift public perception. something similar needs to happen. though please not through triggering and distressing advertising by some charity that is looking to use any level of disturbing, emotive imagery to raise money.

I did link to flashcards about Dr Dee Graham's Loving to Survive but this link is a comprehensive review of the book.

abusesanctuary.blogspot.com/2005/10/loving-to-survive-sexual-terror-mens.html

I agree that realistically to prevent DV in the first place would literally need a magic wand. Because the amount of money forthcoming from public funds is never going to be enough even if there was a will to take it seriously.

I have made a change though. I have broken the legacy of abuse in my family. And I am absolutely determined that my DC's will grow up with healthy self esteem, confidence, empathy, and appropriate boundaries. They will not become abusers or victims. I will educate them so they grow up having far too much knowledge to ever become either.

:) Good stuff, jasmine. That's something to be very proud of.

Thanks garlic. If we all do our bit to ensure our DC's grow up emotionally healthy and strong I do believe the ripple effect will create a big change.

me too jasmine. sadly, my half brother hasnt managed it though, and i think he continues to have problems with a dysfunctional relationship and sadly he has a child - i cannot be responsible for him though, and we are not in contact. He is not violent, as far as im aware (??) but his drug/alcohol addiction issues along with his ex wifes similar issues dont bode well for a happy ending for his child. I have no idea what the answer is.
My children dont really know much about my background, and have such a normal life - DS is going to uni soon and DD is a typical bright and beautiful teenage girl.

i am proud of that. I have come to accept that i cannot save the world.

Vicar, my sisters are still in denial about it all. I don't see them anymore. But I've no doubt they are subconsciously repeating the patterns of our childhood.

I think the process of enlightenment and insight is evolutionary. Maybe your brothers' child and my sisters' children will be the one's to break the abusive cycle if our siblings do not evolve and develop insight themselves.

Neither you nor I can save the world. But we can save our DC's from our own experiences. And hopefully they in turn will have a positive influence on the people they touch in their lives, and so on.

But you are also helping in a positive way in your professional capacity which is brilliant, well done you. I'm not able to work right now (ill health, legacy of childhood abuse), but once I'm better I want to work for Refuge as a lawyer. (I'm a lawyer by profession).

There is a huge difference between a terrified, vulnerable woman who genuinely can't get help because it isn't there or they don't know how, that sadly does happen, particularly with immigrants who may not speak the language or understand the legal system and are economically dependent on their abusers.

I don't believe that the majority of women in violent relationships are terrorised victims, while I have the greatest sympathy for those that are, the majority that I come across just love aggressive men and love the drama of violence. They are violent people themselves and generally speaking are just as sociopathic and manipulative as the men they are attracted to. They care more for their relationships than they do for their children.

I stopped a couple of friendships when I realised that they were never going to change, that their toxic behaviour would exist even without their violent partners because even if the violent partner left, he would soon be replaced by an equally vile individual. These women seemed to thrive on the drama of their 'bad boys' and any nice man would be rejected.

It is pure fallacy that women are so pathetic and stupid that we are incapable of evil and any bad behaviour must be evidence of victimhood. Women are just as capable of being sadistic, immoral, cruel, selfish and evil as men and people with those qualities are generally attracted to each other.

There are of course innocent women who genuinely fall victim to the charms of evil men, before they know who they are with they are trapped in fear and I think this obsession with labelling all women as victims and all violent relationships as non consensual, doesn't help those who really do suffer through no fault of their own.

Any woman who says she loves the man who harms her child is a perpetrator of violence and absolutely not a victim.

I know for a fact that since I had my baby I am more than capable of murder, nothing would stop me from protecting my child and I would kill or die to protect her. There would be hell to pay for anybody who tried to harm her. That instinct is what these women lack, they don't care because they don't love.

I feel offended by your post, bobbledunk, on behalf of women in my family. While my mother's choices harmed me very much, she didn't make them out of malice. It's a kind of ignorance - a blindness - that has been quite well described in previous posts about the 'childlike' nature of some people (often women), about the cycle of violence and about Stockholm Syndrome. I have sisters and cousins who share this blindness and have allowed their children to be hit. They love their children.

If the human psyche were a matter of polarised Good and Bad, life would be a lot simpler. But it isn't. Pretending things are that straightforward will do nothing at all to resolve this ongoing problem. Understanding it - and blaming the violators rather than the victims - may help, if not for this generation then the next.

Any woman who says she loves the man who harms her child is a perpetrator - This is true. She is also a victim.

You know what, I am totally and completely ignorant of the basics of astro-physics.

So I don't post long perorations on the subject.

I wish people would follow a similar course when they know sweet Fanny Adams about DV. (And rape and breastfeeding and ooh, such a long list of subjects totally oblivious people feel the urge to talk about.)