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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How can a parent let their child be beaten by an OH

267 replies

JugsyMalone · 04/02/2012 01:21

I just don't get this. I am a single parent to 2 boys.

I would never be with a partner for one second who hurt my kids. I would batter the bloke back and be straight down the police station. Even if I was mortally afraid I would be out of the house with my kids at the corner shop or anywhere public asap.

But it's always the boyfriend who batters the baby to death. Yes, he's the nutter. But what is wrong with the mother?

OP posts:
StewieGriffinsMom · 04/02/2012 12:28

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jasminerice · 04/02/2012 12:49

Tortoise, don't beat yourself up. You did something. You got your DC's away from the abuse. My mother did NOTHING. I got away from the abuse by leaving. My mother did nothing to help or protect me whilst it was going on. I HATE and despise her and will never let her or my dad back into my life.

Dustinthewind · 04/02/2012 13:07

'The abuse stopped when his children grew up enough to fight back.'

Did he carry out his threats and kill everyone he'd threatened to Dooin?
Did she stay with him because she still believed he might?

'As a coping mechanisim she seems to have justified the abuse in her head and convinced herself it was not that bad because he also did x, y and z and wasn't bad all the time. '

He children had to suffer until they were old enough to protect themselves, because no one did anything to help them escape. That's appalling.

She was free to deceive herself any way she wanted to, but they had to be part of it because no one else intervened, and that's wrong.

Dustinthewind · 04/02/2012 13:11

Tortoise, do you think the SS were right to do what they did to protect your children?

Tortoise · 04/02/2012 13:33

Dust Yes it was the right thing for them to do. It hurt like hell at the time (and still does when I think about that day, my DDs 1st birthday) but it meant DS1 was safe. He never hit/hurt my DS2 but for his safety both went to their dads. It took me 2 years of court to get them home, I wasn't going to give up!

Thumbwitch · 04/02/2012 13:41

Tortoise - have you come to any conclusions about why it happened that way? Have you had any counselling for it, or any help to work out why you weren't able to react? I'm interested, not wanting to blame you.

LetsKateWin · 04/02/2012 13:50

I have never met anyone who hasn't been of the opinion that they would leave immediately if their partner beat them, but many people don't. I think this illustrates that it's not as easy as we all believe.

I have seen someone close to me, who would never be walked all over by anyone, go through the process of him making her abandon her friends, making her think that he was the only person in the world that she needed and then eroded all her confidence, followed by mental and physical abuse. They do it such a clever way that the victim doesn't realise what's happening. Again, we would probably all say that we would never let a partner come between us and our friends but it happens.

I know it's nice to think that we would all leave immediately if our children were in danger, but you become a different person when you get ground down and you think in a different way.

I know not all situations are the same, and in my 'normal' state of mind I can't ever see myself standing by and letting anyone be violent towards my DD, but there may come a time when I find myself in too deep before I've realised what's happened. Obviously I hope this day will never come.

I hope this makes sense. I had to go and change a nappy in the middle of typing...

D0oinMeCleanin · 04/02/2012 13:53

She may still be with him because she believes he might carry out his threats, although he is in ill health now (certainly not physically capable of beating his children to death) and I think she feels reponsible for him. The threats are now only made towards himself i.e "If you leave me I will kill myself" he probably would. The emotional abuse is still going on, but not as extreme as it used to be.

Thumbwitch · 04/02/2012 14:05

LetsKateWin - I agree. I have also been in a relationship that had elements of abuse and am extraordinarily lucky and grateful that the bastard moved on to someone else before I got too sucked in. But it is quite incredible how you forgive the first "slip", and then the next isn't really any/much worse, so because you forgave it the first time, you do it again; and then the next one is that little bit worse but he's so apologetic, didn't mean it, you believe him etc...
I used to think I'd leave at the first hit but I didn't. It's truly astonishing what happens. BUT - I still like to think I'd stand up for my child being bashed/abused - can't tell though, can I. :(

Tortoise · 04/02/2012 14:35

Thumbwitch No, I haven had any counselling. I don't know why I didn't react. He did threaten to take DDs away if he had to leave and he was always right about everything, my opinion didn't count. When he picked DS1 up and threw he across the room I did stop him getting to him. DS would have been about 7 years old then.

cartimandua · 04/02/2012 15:44

DV will continue as long as our society continues to condone it. It is as simple as that. Were there the will to stamp it out, women would know that they would be protected. They could go to the police secure in the knowledge that the perpetrator would be swiftly removed from the house, charged, tried and slung in jail if found guilty. There should be no need for refuges - why should the innocent party have to leave the home? No wonder abused women stay and put up with it, when many of them see no alternative. As long as girls continue to be socialised into passivity and taught that lurve conquers all and that having a man is the be-all and end-all of existence, what hope do they have? They have been taught to be helpless and blaming them for it is cruel and counterproductive.

Dustinthewind · 04/02/2012 15:59

Where does that leave the children then, cartimandua?
Left with the mother or removed because she can't or won't protect them from a constant danger in their lives?

' As long as girls continue to be socialised into passivity and taught that lurve conquers all and that having a man is the be-all and end-all of existence, what hope do they have? They have been taught to be helpless and blaming them for it is cruel and counterproductive.'

By whom? My DD and her friends get mixed messages from the media and from some adults they come into contact with, her education within school and college has been free of that particular career choice, but it isn't quite the brainwashing situation that you appear to think it is. Who teaches the women in our culture to be helpless and passively accept violence and rape in return for material comforts and the security of a jail home?
Not in this society. I would agree if you were stepping into certain other cultures that I have experienced, but even girls from those traditional arrangements are beginning to see that there are alternatives, and to seize the opportunities available with both hands.
The fact that abused children often grow up to repeat their experiences is another reason for intervention with the needs of the child paramount.

LittleWhiteWolf · 04/02/2012 17:22

This make me very uneasy. As of right now I can promise that if someone laid a hand on my DD I would protect her. But how can I be so arrogant as to assume that this is true? Likewise I can swear that no man will ever abuse me...but can I really? I don't believe anyone can speak in absolutes like this when they have no idea of what the experience of DV is actually like.

My MIL was beaten by FIL for years when DH and SIL were small children. They were unharmed, but by no means undamaged. MIL was frightened of FIL and believed that the abuse was not only normal, but to be expected. She had been taught this by her family and friends, none of whom did anything and were often victims themselves. Her father was cruel to her, and so she saw nothing wrong with a continuation of cruelty from her husband. FWIW she met FIL when she was 18 and became pregnant with DH almost at once, so went directly from her fathers house to her husbands house. Fast forward several years later, and MIL discovered that SILs partner (with whom she had a baby) had beaten her more than once. SIL was just 16. MIL told SIL to "talk to" her partner, but to return to him. It was normal for the male member of a relationship to act out his agression with his fists. Its only by chance that DH and I found out about this, and it was us backing up SIL and telling her that no it wasn't right, yes it was illegal and she really didn't have to put up with it, that she left him. It was less than 2 months later that he broke into her flat and stabbed a man he found there who was a friend of SILs picking up some things for her.

My point is that until violence against women, violence from men (husbands, partners, boyfriends) continues to be normalised, this will continue. MIL should have protected her daughter, even if it wasn't her boyfriend committing the violence, but SILs, but she didn't. She pushed them back together because she believed wholeheartedly that it was the done thing in relationships.

cartimandua · 04/02/2012 17:34

The children are central, of course they are. But until, as a society, we decide that we won't tolerate DV any longer, it is pointless to continue to berate the victims. The men who commit the crime should be removed from the home, not the women and children. We have a long history of turning a blind eye to "domestics". If mothers had confidence that the legal system would protect them properly they might feel more capable of picking up the phone and calling for help. Protect mothers properly, and you automatically protect the children by getting the abuser out of the home and making sure he doesn't get back in. But resources have to be there to do that, and it would be expensive, so it doesn't happen. Which is appallingly short sighted as the fall-out later on because damaged children grow up into damaged adults costs a fortune to deal with. It just shows the strength of the way things are and have been that governments have avoided the issue for so long. Rather than put the resource in to deal with the problem at source they do as little as they can get away with. It's only women and kids, right? Plenty more where they came from.
As for evidence of passivity, and fear of being without a man I refer you to threads all over the Relationships board. But I don't want to argue: we both want the same thing. I just think that the best way forward is to put the blame and the consequences where it belongs - on the abusers.

flippinada · 04/02/2012 18:30

This is very close to home for me; I ended up reporting a former friend to SS because of a dreadful incident with her DC and her boyfriend that I still find hard to talk and think about. It happened quite recently :(

She chose to be with the boyfriend., because she believed they were meant to be. She definitely had other issues.

I was told her DC are safe and well but there's not a day goes by when I don't think about them all :(.

flippinada · 04/02/2012 18:36

I agree totally with everyone who is saying how fundamentally important it is to tackle DV. It is far to easy for men to get away with it.

Archemedes · 04/02/2012 18:55

On my street was a family with DV, Alcoholism etc the kid would often run to my house for refuge in the early hours after the dad had come back again blasted and violent.

After 20 years all it took was my mum to say 'you know in the eyes of the law you're as guilty as him you have a duty to protect!' for her to get up off her arse and be a mother and for many years shes allowed her children to take beatings if it meant she didn't (seen this first hand as young as 5 Sad)
Not all women like this are terrified victims, some are just basically very selfish or are more interested in having a boyfriend.

However I know thats an extreme example, most women are very scared I can't /won't leave due to repercussions, like an above poster said the time within the woman first leaves is the most dangerous.

sunshineandbooks · 04/02/2012 20:43

This is going to be a long post. I apologise in advance but I really want to help people understand what abuse does to your mindset.

I left my abusive partner on the first incidence of physical violence against me (when my DTs were 4 months old). The only time my abusive XP laid a finger on my DC was after I'd already left him, at which point I kicked him out of my house there and then, contacted social services immediately and established supervised contact only. I was the primary earner in the relationship when we were together so had more advantages than most when I left him (I was made homeless but had the means to buy a home, for example). As far as the outside world was concerned, I was the exact opposite of what an abused woman is like. I did everything that people on this thread think a woman should do when faced with an abusive partner or someone who hurts their DC.

Despite this, I can still see why so many women don't leave and why some go so far as to let their children be abused. I'm not making excuses for it, but I just don't think you can understand it unless you've been there.

For me, the saving grace was the wonderful example I was set by my own parents. As soon as things became physical, I knew I had to leave. There was simply no way - no matter how much of an angle he or I tried to put on it - that I could find a way to excuse that. But other abusive behaviour isn't that straightforward. I look back now and I cringe at some of the behaviours that my X exhibited toward me and the excuses that he or I made about them so that I didn't feel I had to leave there and then.

The psychological abuse started when I was pregnant (as is often the case). No abuse of any kind in the five years preceding this, though with hindsight I can see behaviours towards others that should have raised concerns. That said, I can just imagine people's reactions if I posted a thread saying "DP got into a silly fight in the pub and beat the guy up. Should I leave?" I guarantee that as soon as the words "he's never laid a finger on me" were said, most posters would say that I would be mad to leave him based on that example. Abuse is a pattern of behaviour. You can only see it for what it is when you look at the bigger picture, and when you're in the relationship you often can't, especially when each isolated incident can be excused by itself very plausibly indeed.

Women in abusive relationships suffer from massive cognitive dissonance. They have a great deal invested in making excuses for behaviour. So the overly harsh criticism, or the jealousy because you were talking to another man, or the refusal to help around the home become excused because he was having a bad day, or he loves me so passionately, or he can't help it he's just a typical man and doesn't see dirt. These things are not so far removed from what goes on in many 'normal' relationships are they?.

Abuse just ramps it up, step by step, until by the time the first punch is thrown, you believe the justification presented by your abuser. Indeed, if he's that good, he won't even have to make it because you'll already be blaming yourself for provoking him. Even if you make a stand over it, if you accept his apology and try again, you've drawn your line in the sand so far from your original stance that you may as well have scrubbed it out completely. THat's why I get so frustrated with the some posters who blame women for not leaving and protecting children when they are very often the same ones who come out with trite sayings like "every one deserves a second chance" or "it takes two to make a relationship fail" or "be honest now, did you provoke him in any way?" or "if he's genuinely sorry I don't see why you can't put this behind you especially as you've admitted that you were partly to blame".

By the time you've reached this mindset, it really isn't that much of a stretch to believe that if smacking is acceptable in law and the child has been really badly behaved, then physical abuse of the child is ok. As long as nothing is broken it can't be that bad. Especially as the abuser will be claiming that the child is over-reacting on purpose and by accepting that explanation you can shield yourself from the possibility of becoming homeless, fleeing to refuge, having no money, no prospects, being scared, etc.

It's all an exercise in desensitisation. One tiny little chip at a time. The scary thing is, as psychological research shows, it can happen to any of us under the right circumstances no matter how strong our personal moral code. Some women grow up seeing abusive relationships as normal (either their own parents or by watching abuse in families in their community where other adults stand by and do nothing). Others grow up assimilating the culture that relationships are worth making 'sacrifices' for, that a woman should 'stand by her man', that children from broken homes have dreadful outcomes. All these make women a step closer to that 'ideal' Hmm set of circumstances.

That's why the best way to tackle this is through tackling perpetrators and getting more help for women to leave and to STAY left. Heaping moral outrage on them will do little because they won't even recognise it's aimed at them until it's too late. They don't see it the way you see it. And often it takes months out of a relationship for a woman's perceptions to return to normal. Women who manage to stay away from their abuser for a protracted length of time tend NOT to return. It's the ones who can't avoid their abusers who struggle and often go back. This is why cutting refuge places, cutting social fund grants, cutting social housing, etc are so important. They trap women. And it's made worse by courts who insist that abuse toward a woman is no reason for a child not to have contact - seeming to completely miss the point that this prevents the woman from truly recovering and so renders her and therefore her children at greater risk for abuse in the future. There have been a couple of cases here on MN where the the family courts have insisted a child has contact with an abusive man who has been abusive to them as well as their mother. If the 'experts' say it's ok, how can we judge a woman so harshly when she may have had years of grooming to reach the point where she thinks it's ok?

None of this deals with the example of the women who made a decision to put up with her children being abused in the first few weeks of a relationship but then I honestly don't believe that is commonplace.

Nor do I think that the woman's suffering trumps the child. I have no problem with SS intervening to keep a child safe if the mother is incapable of doing so. The child has to come first. However, it makes more sense for the child if the mother can be helped to reach the point where she CAN stand up for the child. So giving SS or the courts the power to remove the man from the house and ban him from contact for 6 months WITHOUT the consent of the mother, would be a good step. Tag the man to make sure he won't flout it (as early on in the separation a mother who could in 6 months time lay down her life for her child might at this early stage let her abuser back in and he knows that). Mandatory prison sentences for DV instead of the usual caution. Lots of things can be done. But aren't.

Dustinthewind · 04/02/2012 21:51

'By the time you've reached this mindset, it really isn't that much of a stretch to believe that if smacking is acceptable in law and the child has been really badly behaved, then physical abuse of the child is ok. As long as nothing is broken it can't be that bad.'

You are right, I haven't been in that position and can't begin to understand how anyone can think a 6 year old might deserve being thrown across the room, beaten but not broken, slashed, burned or screamed at until they think they are a worthless piece of shit not worth a name.
If the adults in that child's life are as insane as that, then the child is helpless and abandoned and without a hope of safety.
Unfortunately the law relies on people like me to accumulate evidence of abuse to help protect a child. You can't remove a person from their home and ban them from contact without evidence, and if the best witness won't do anything, then it is so much harder to prove. Which is why so many children suffer and die in their own homes.

RealitySickOfSick · 04/02/2012 22:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Thumbwitch · 04/02/2012 22:27

Dustinthewind - your post of 15:59, I don't agree with what you said.
There are still enough women out there who truly believe that keeping the marriage together is more important than "a few little slaps" Hmm - and many of them are the mothers of currently abused women. These mothers will advise their DDs to stay in an abusive relationship, "for the sake of the children", for the looks of things, and/or because, for them, it is not abnormal behaviour. In another generation or two, I really hope those attitudes will be long gone - but they're still prevalent now, even in our society.

There are still mothers whose fondest hope is to marry off their DDs, regardless of to whom - and the more charming the sonIL, the more they will look past his "little misdemeanours" because he's a "good provider" and a "great dad".
I had my mind opened by MNers, I have to say - HOW can someone be a great Dad when he abuses the children's mother and exposes them to DV? How is that being a great Dad? It isn't.

Dustinthewind · 04/02/2012 22:46

You're right, I don't know why I said it. Anger at the people who think their children should be part of their warped and twisted world? Fury at the impotence of all the education and positive discrimination for girls that happens in schools?
Rage that all the work put in towards getting women equal rights in the eyes of the law over the last 40 years still doesn't begin to match up against the mindless drones whose highest ambition is to be decorative, a reality TV star or a WAG?
Who will put up with the unbearable because they fear standing up on their own? Pressurised by other women into behaving 'correctly'
I've been picking up the pieces of such failures for years, and I am very tired of trying to understand it from the adults' point of view.

sunshineandbooks · 04/02/2012 23:03

Dustinthewind you've completely failed to engage with the attrition angle of my explanation. I am in total agreement with you about how children need protecting from parents who behave like that, but if your goal is to reduce child abuse and cruelty, then understanding how it happens (which is not the same as condoning it) is key IMO.

I'm as horrified as you are by what some children have had to experience, and I applaud anyone involved in the fight to safeguard children. But I think it's as important to understand what is going wrong and to use that knowledge to reduce the number of households where this takes place as it is to mop up the pieces in court when the damage has pretty much already been done.

IMO there are a number of key things that need doing. We need much, much harder sentences for DV and a concerted campaign to make it socially unacceptable. If the same level of energy was put into it as smoking, for example, we could see a huge reduction. 50 years ago, 90% of men smoked. Now it's less than 1/4. No one believes DV is more addictive than smoking do they? The cost to the public in terms of dealing with the consequences of DV would make such a campaign money well spent.

We need to make leaving an abusive relationship easier - and I don't mean just practically. We need greater outreach support in schools to identify the children who may be suffering.

We will never change the behaviour of the parents like Reality's uncle's wife. It's always going to be the case that some people are too badly damaged by life/their own personality to be saved, but getting messages in young can change the acceptability of certain crimes (if it didn't, we would have a much higher murder rate) and reduce this blight for future generations.

sunshineandbooks · 04/02/2012 23:05

X posted. I understand your anger and empathise. The day you stop caring is dark day and it is to your credit that it makes you so angry. I think we're just maybe approaching the same problem from opposite ends.

sunshineandbooks · 04/02/2012 23:14

Sorry for multiple posts, but from an analytical POV it could certainly be useful to separate children who are victims of a man's extended DV towards the mother (which child abuse often is) and children who are victims of a mother who is directly complicit in the abuse. There are some shocking cases of mothers who have deliberately harmed their own DC of their own volition, so I'm not trying to paint child abuse as something only men do. Although the effect on the child is the same Sad I think there is a big difference between the motivating factors and that a lot more can be done to counter DV-associated child abuse than can be done to alter the abusive personality of a mother intent on harming her child. I'd also say that DV-related child abuse is more prevalent, which in some ways is more encouraging if you believe as I do that it can be stamped out.