what brings you 'here'?

[bejeezus]

hello, Ive been posting mostly in Relationships and AIBU so far. I have started threads recently which started off as being about; 'Women who get on better with men' and 'the messages within fairytales'. Also been posting in a thread about the 'Relationship' board being full of misandry.

The cumulative effect of these have lead me to the shocking realisation that some women have misogynistic views. I always thought I was pretty much apathetic and my views about womens rights were middle of the roadish. But I think,actually I might be a feminist! If Im not, then I want to be please.

Im nearly 40; am I too old? will I get run out of town for being the most bimbling/unread/foot in mouth 40 year old born again feminist? I thought people realised this about themselves in their 20s? I was too busy saboutaging fox hunts in my 20s to be thinking about women.

So, how did your femisinist POVs evolve?

Oh dear

Then, on a political level, I probably do hold 'transphobic' views

I consider myself an uneducated feminist.

I'm a woman so why would I not want to be a feminist? After joining MN I started doubting that I was a feminist. Some of the views expressed seemed a tad extreme for my liking and it was also clear that the majority of the posters were more informed on the subject than I am.

After a little self-doubt and lurking on the feminist board I have come to the conclusion that I am most definitely a feminist albeit a not very well read one. I have added more feminist literature on my to read list.

I don't whether its just me but misogyny and the acceptance of it seems to be growing in this country and I find it very depressing.

When I started work back in 1990 I found the workplace a depressing place to be a woman. My first job was an admin position in a very male dominated environment. It was the norm for office walls to be adorned with posters of naked women, I even remember one secretary who was turned upside down every morning so the men could see what knickers she was wearing. Ten years later and that behaviour just wasn't acceptable. Men still made it to the top but it had become the norm to see a smattering of female faces in the boardroom and any overtly sexist behaviour was dealt with harshly. It wasn't perfect but I really felt we had come a long way in quite a short space of time.

Fast forward another 10 years and my perception is that things are far more bleak than they ever were. I read the link from that university online magazine yesterday and I should have been shocked but I'm not. Lots of young men now view women as nothing more than walking genitals and seem to have a real hatred of the opposite sex. Why is it like this now? I have teenage nieces who have had naked photos of themselves plastered on Facebook when they have split up with their exes. Teenage girls who I know have admitted that they have had lesbian encounters (watched by men) and have had sexual experiences with more than one man at a time. They say that my generation (late 30s) is prudish and boring but I don't believe that their casual attitude to sex is liberating, I think they are far more anxious and unhappy as a whole than our generation was.

I have also seen comments from men on fb that have started off as sexist jokes e.g women can't drive etc but has escalated into posts where they demonstrate a real resentment and disdain for women.

Sorry I have gone off on a tangent I just feel that now more than ever is an important time to encourage women and girls to engage with the feminist cause.

I went to school with a MTF transsexual who started her transition during the last year (6th form equivalent). The bullying she was subjected to from fellow students and teachers was horrendous. So maybe I'm biased. But if someone wants to identify as a woman, I feel, that even if they have not gone through surgery (yet) they should be free to do so. It's nobody's business what's inside their knickers.

As for segregation - if a preop MTF suffers rape and DV, how safe do you think they would feel in a crisis centre for men?

Please note that transvestite, transgender and transsexual are not synonymous. I'm not talking about men who like to dress up in drag.

WW: I think you point to the problem quite clearly. I agree that the MTF would not feel safe in a male refuge; but why is that sufficient reason to make all the women at the female refuge feel unsafe? Should the MTF be more important than those in the female refuge? And if so, why? On what grounds? I certainly do not want the MTF to be bullied, assaulted or just feeling exposed and unsafe, but neither do I think that women who have been abused by men should be expected to be able to happily accept the presence of a male body in their refuge if they find it threatening.

I struggle with the whole issue myself since I am also extremely uneasy about the criteria of doctors and legislators use when decide what the definitions of "male" and "female" in contexts not directly related to biology. But I also would energetically feel that it is not my place to criticize or condemnn anyone who feels so other in their own body that the only way they can imagine feeling better is to adopt such a radical solution.

But having said that, I think the whole issue of whether biological sex is determined by your chromosones or by hormones is not a discussion by which we could best welcome newcomers to the board. Discussions of this nature tend to attract the trolls.

I think there is no requirement in feminism that demands that everyone share the same point of view on the matter.

Catherine - how would the other women even know that she was biologically a male without checking her knickers if she identified as a woman?

I brought the topic up, because this is one which deterred me from the feminist section in the past. I realise now that it's more of a continuum and not everyone who identifies as feminist shares those views, but it does make me question whether I belong here or not.

I agree with CM

its not just biology though is it? Its about your life experiences as a girl/women from the time you were born. It feels very dismissive of that

But that doesn't answer my question, WW. You are just saying "what they don't know won't hurt them". But what if they found out? They might be sympathetic, they might not. I suspect not everyone would react the same. Some would be fine, some not. However this person feels about themselves this won't change the fact of their genetalia and how threatening this might be to some women.

I really must insist that I am not trying to be deliberately obtuse nor discriminatory towards our imaginary person. I just think that it is wrong to privilege this person over the others in the equation. Hence my question of why do you think they should be and why.

I would also reiterate that any disagreement in the topic is not a reason for you not to post here, nor question that you belong here. There are a large number of topics in feminism where there is no agreement between posters. And we are certainly not an unfriendly bunch, whatever our detractors like to think.

CM - so basically you're saying because the transgendered person is in a minority, she wouldn't deserve shelter, it's just bad luck for her.

Thing is - I can kind of almost follow your logic, however gruesome I find it, but what I meant was not about hypothetical MTFs in rape shelters, but the claims made by some (e.g. Bindel, but also have read it on this board) that the condition doesn't exist, that they were misogynists for perpetuating gender stereotypes, especially when they're much into hyperfeminine attire. That's where I think it's getting too "us and them".

For me, the bits of feminism I can identify with are about equality, and what needs to be done to work towards it. The bits which are about segregation are what I find problematic.

sounds like it boils down to whether you accept MTF as women?

I would have thought that I would have said I do, but now I could never suppose to know what it is really like to be transgender (correct term?) But I would also say that a TG person doesnt reallyknow what it is like to be a women. And, wouldnt they argue that, they are women so yes they do?

But being a women born into a mans body gives you a whole different set of experiences than being born as a women in a womens body?

I would feel betrayed I think, if for example,it came to light that my rape counsellor was MTF

WRT;
For me, the bits of feminism I can identify with are about equality, and what needs to be done to work towards it. The bits which are about segregation are what I find problematic

WW from what TBE has said, legislation for TG is impacting on equality?

I would feel betrayed I think, if for example,it came to light that my rape counsellor was MTF

sorry....because, of the possible possession of male genitalia and because shewould have spent her children/formative years as a male

Ah, so it's of course the misogynists who marginalise them. Not those people who declare them not to be women in the first place.

Im not even convinced that bullying of TG people is down to misogyny? Im pretty sure that the bullies wouldnt view those people as women.. Isnt it just generalised bigotry/xenophobia?

and yes,I would never want to feel that people felt my views were perpetrating any isolation/bullying/assualts or humiliation

x posted!

It's just reduction of people to their genitals. That's wrong, no matter whether they're men, women or transgendered. To me that's a very simplistic world view.

its not- it includes life experiences

And life experiences are what makes a person

Women are united through shared life experiences

TG people have different life experiences

?

and biologically,it isnt even just genitals - genetics, hormones etc mensturation, child birth

No, you lost me there. My life experiences as a woman are certainly very different from women in other societies - and whilst having experienced some sexist attitudes (and those only relatively late and not in early life), I'm certainly quite privileged compared to others. Would that make me less of a woman then, too?

Who says they want or claim to be better women?

What makes a women a women then?

Good question. I don't know. And that's why I personally can't tell someone who identifies as a woman that they are not.

WW. I certainly am not saying this imaginary person does not deserve shelter. I think anyone deserves help when in the situation put forward. I just don't think it is appropriate to put them in a women's refuge. It's a question of respecting both sides in question and not prioritizing one person over others. It is very sad that someone who believes themselves to be female be in a male body and very traumatic for them. However, I find it hard to believe that a person who has experienced this truama is unable to empathize with a situation where women who are in a shelter, traumatized themselves by abuse from men and promised that they are in an all female environment, might feel if they found a male body among them. I don't understand why they would not demand to have a safe space for themselves. Why should they have to swallow their fears and be made to feel unsafe? Why should it be them who make a sacrifice here?

Sorry, why should the women in the shelter be the ones asked to forget their trauma?