Very good blog about not "middle-class"-ing feminism

[AnnieLobeseder]

I thought this was well worth a read.

Very interesting, thanks - lots of interesting points.

I think some of the outcomes for Jodie Marsh are connected to feminism, but most of her story (from what I can see from this article; I didn't see the tv programme) isn't particularly about being a girl. It is about being a child in a society that does next to nothing about bullying in schools, which has to come from a society where many adults are unconcerned about cruelty to other people and have lost their humanity.

The damaging things that young people do as a consequence of that cruelty are often different for boys and girls and that comes from gender roles, but the actual problem of adults allowing children to remain in terribly cruel situations applies equally to boys and girls.

Bullying is not an un-middle class topic. And the reason why the focus is on the other two women is not because they are middle class but because they are feminists who actually wield some political power for once. Are we meant to not focus on feminists who actually get some political power because they are then, by definition, too middle class?

I am watching the programme now; I can see how Jodie Marsh's experiences would have had an effect on her self esteem and played a part in the way she chose to live her life a few years ago. I can also see the connection to feminism given that her bullying and a lot of bullying (including that which happened to me) centred around the way she looked/looks.

I was that girl. I am at uni now at the age of 36 and a (recently) open feminist. These are exactly the reasons why I want to teach in a disadvantaged high school, I want to instill some self worth into girls and give them higher self esteem than I had, and show them that it is ok to be clever and a virgin (for example).

I agree Yule. I think bullying is to do with feminism because kids are usually bullied when they deviate from the hetero-patriarchal norms. Boys are bullied for appearing "gay" and girls for appearing too clever. Girls are bullied for being ugly but are targets of jealousy if they are too pretty, which is just part of the tightrope girls have to walk under patriarchy.

DS is constantly scared that he will be teased if he appears to like "girly" things. The pressure to conform to gender expectations is so intense that it is crippling for boys that don't, and I think that is a huge feminist issue because feminism is the only ideology I know of that challenges the gender straitjacket society puts on our kids.

Very good points made.

Interesting blog and well-written. Off to watch that Jodie Marsh programme now.

Bullying is a character flaw and bullies need few excuses to find targets. They attack those they deem 'different' in any respect not necessarily on the basis of gender stereoptypes. Hair colour, height or lack of, accent, short-sight, skin colour, make of clothing, religion, fat/thin .... a bully will single out any trivial difference whatsoever to justify their actions. Attribute bullying to gender stereotyping alone and I think that totally ignores the real problem

How fascinating. I was in the same year as Jodie at school. I also felt pretty queasy looking at it in the scene when she went back to visit. We weren't friends and I had no idea that she had such a bad time, but it certainly wasn't a very nice place so I am not surprised.

ClothesOfSand - I wouldn't say the message was that we shouldn't discuss more politically obvious feminists. The message I took home was that we should be careful not to focus all our attention on them. And also to remember, when we judge women like Jodie Marsh, Jordan etc for being anti-feminist, that they are a product of patriarchal society, not the enemy.

I've never thought it anti feminist to use your physical allure for gain or your class or dress although it's rarely wise just to rely on that and perfectly possible not to at all and do something that doesn't require it.

I think radical feminists understand very well, that women like Jordan, Jodie Marsh, Miss Venezuela etc., are not the enemy and never have been.

Well, most radical feminists anyway.

Not sure about other branches of feminism. Some liberal feminists do blame women for complying with patriarchy, without ever really analysing the logic of doing so.

Annie, yes, I think the point I was trying to get at was perhaps similar to Cogito's. There are two elements to bullying. The first is that it is situated within a particular social context of the treatment of minority groups - women and conformity to gender roles, ethnic minorities, homosexuality and so on. Those things need addressing within those particular contexts. But there is also another issue of simple human cruelty and why we don't address that in general. Obviously the two are related. The existence of seeing women as less than fully human can justify cruelty, but the existence of cruelty can justify seeing women as less than fully human.

On an entirely separate note, I don't think it is as much about seeing Jodie Marsh as being the product of the patriarchy or the enemy. I think it is about seeing that Jodie Marsh is no different from any of the rest of us. She may be written a little larger than the rest of us, and is certainly a lot more famous, but she is not from some other category.

I think that is at the heart of a lot of the sexism on MN. A lot of women think that worrying about the impact sexism has on young women is not worth worrying about, because they don't think it will happen to their daughters. Rape, domestic violence, harassment, bullying, sexualisation doesn't happen to women like them or girls like their daughters. It happens to some other kind of girl - a girl like Jodie Marsh. But that is a fantasy; she is all of us and it takes some kind of massive cognitive dissonance to believe that we aren't all just like Jodie Marsh in many ways. And the more people feel able to distance themselves from women like her the safer they feel and the more able they are to maintain that cognitive dissonance. I don't think radical feminists are responsible for that at all.

Sorry if this is a bit incoherent.

It's not incohererent at all CofS. It's absolutely spot on

The "othering" that is at the heart of all bullying, is also at the heart of all sexism, racism, homophobia, anti-semitism, etc. - the distancing of oneself from the subject of the bullying or hatred; the lack of empathy and the denial that these people are just like us.

Makes perfect sense to me, ClothesOfSand. Well said.

To be honest, I find the bullying complaints rich coming from Jodie Marsh, who used to write a pretty vitriolic blog in which she regularly attacked people (especially women) for their looks, weight and sexuality. Beat Bullying even sacked her as a spokesperson because of this.

Having now read the blog I'm a little disappointed tbh. It may be a feminist issue because the original bullying centred around appearance but I get the same feeling reading it as I do reading accounts where people try to excuse a person's criminal behaviour on the grounds of their upbringing. It isn't inevitable that if someone is from a broken home they become a drug dealer any more than bullying is bound to result in a particular outcome. Jodie Marsh (I don't know her very well) seems to have had a lot of flak in the past for her image and it is understandable if she wants to get more of us on her side. So, whilst I don't mind anyone bringing the problems of bullying to the forefront, I feel that there is an element of 'pity me' manipulation going on for PR purposes. The cynic in me suspects there will be a misery-porn memoir on the shelves shortly.