I need some help with something! Please.

[Alouisee]

Specifically from feminist perspective and because I know lots of you have facts at your fingertips and know how to deal with "things like this"

A family friend has been accused of inappropriate sexual activity with two women via his industries governing body. We only discovered this by reading a paper. It is also on the website for his industry.

He has form for this sort of behaviour, lots of affairs, several marriages. One of his affairs left my family dealing with one of his women over the telephone for hours at a time.

He has adult children (my friends) I was instrumental in the children hearing the news via one of my relatives. They were all devastated, despite his history.

He has now told all of his family that the two women involved in the current case are deranged and were led by each other. The family are adamant that they believe him.

I'm disgusted that despite everything that he has done over the years people are still willing to believe him and because they believe him I am expected to also.

Apologies for the vague details but until the final hearing is complete I don't want to be accused of jeopardising anything.

How can I point out that people are being manipulated by this man?

You can't, to simply answer your question. Although I too am appalled at the family response, in support of your view. That's all I can give. Men like this will always respond that the woman was at fault, derranged etc;.

I sympathasise but can offer nothing more than this. I blame the patriarchy.

Thanks Dworkin. It sounds so hopeless.

I think it is difficult when you are emotionally invested in someone accused of this sort of thing - of course you want to believe them, because if you can't believe what they say here what else does that challenge in terms of what they told you/what you believe? Too painful to contemplate - family can't have an objective viewpoint.

It sounds like his industry is well aware of the situation, the final ruling is pending... I think you may need to bite your tongue and wait for the final ruling. I'm not sure this is a feminist issue per se, if it's just his family that's denying what seems to be otherwise a fairly damning track record...? Just my view, happy to be contradicted.

You're right it probably isn't "just" a feminist issue but I didn't want lots of airy fairy excuses for rape. At least here it tends be accepted that rape happens without frantically justifying men's reactions whie denigrating women.

I don't think there is anything you can do to convince his adult children or anyone else that he is anything but innocent. If that is what they want to believe, that is what they will believe. Even if/when complaints are upheld, chances are they will still think he's done nothing wrong. There may be reasons they need to believe that he's not the bad guy, despite the track record. He's their dad and perhaps they just can't take on board the idea that he could be behaving in this way and letting down their trust yet again.

But, it is in your gift to tell the friends that you don't want to hear them mention his name, let alone attempt to defend anything he has done, past or present. They certainly should not be expecting you (especially given the fact that your own family had to shelter the burden of his past shoddy behaviour,) to sympathise with their view in any way. If they are real friends, they will understand that their position makes you feel uneasy and not bring any of it up.

In fact, if the situation makes you feel so upset and angry, you don't have to have anything to do with them at all. I've alot less patience as I get older with "friends" who say and do things that I find abhorrent. Even if one can kind of understand why they might still wish to defend the indefensible in their father, that doesn't mean you have to be party to it. Think of yourself and what you and your family need. Shut the friends out if their involvement in your life makes you feel crappy.

yy - KRITIQ says it much more eloquently. It's tough though, I do feel for you.

You're very kind - I just feel angry that he's managed to manipulate everyone once again. There are two women who have come forward in this investigation. According to him the first one is a basket case who then incited the other one.

I want to put his name on posters and ask every other victim to come forward.

In fact I just want him to wind up in prison but according to him the cps threw the case out and his QC said there was no case to answer.

So frustrating.

I'm sorry for this situation but Dworkin is right you can't actually do anything, if they choose to stick their fingers in their ears they will.

Are his children even sticking by him?

perhaps take a step back from the situation.

One of his children believes him absolutely, another is slightly dubious going on past history. His siblings have heard his "side" and are all patting themselves on the back that he did no wrong and the women, both of them!! Are complete "basket cases" his words.

I bet he gets away with it.

The branding of women as psycho/mental/nutters/etc when they call men on their bullshit and appalling behaviour towards women is absolutely a feminist issue, as is the phenomenon of people standing shoulder to shoulder with them. The Patriarchy relies on both of those things to prop itself up and maintain its power.

I understand why the family are doing it within the culture we have, even though I would be angry and despairing in equal measure and certainly not condoning their response. I had to learn the hard way that the first rule of my being a feminist is to let go of any expectation that what I say or do will make any difference yet remain hopeful that it might. Any other stance takes me away from practicing what I believe.

Nothing's stopping you from taking an "I Believe Them" stance. Innocent until proven guilty only applies within the judicial system. A thief is still a thief even if he is never caught.

There are family members that will stand by their relative if they are found holding a smoking gun over a dead body. Even when the evidence is piling up by the truckload they swear blind their beloved is totally innocent and a victim of a travesty. They don't want to know the truth.

Sexual offenders are often manipulative, credible people, very good at persuading others to trust them. Look at that teacher convicted last week of molesting children in his own classroom.... no-one challenged him for years. Since sex-crime cases often rely on one person's word against another there's that bit more scope for loyal relatives to claim the alleged victim is making the whole thing up.

He's been struck off

Didn't want to link until the ruling was completed, I wonder if any more of his victims will come forward?

Jesus! Thanks Alouisee, for posting an update... I hope this gives other people some extra strength to come forwards.

Good on those women for being brave enough to pursue him via the GMC.

What has been the family's reaction?

I don't know what the family's latest reaction is yet. If the denial and delusion continues I will disengage completely otherwise I'll be complicit in his support. If that makes sense.

I imagine there is a certain relief it's not on the front page of a paper today, Cheryl Cole and Fred Goodwin have the broadsheets and the tabloids covered.

"It's one of the problems with the patriarchal structures "

It has nothing to do with patriarchal structures and judgements about what constitutes a 'bad woman' and everything to do with denial and misguided loyalty. When mothers frog-marched their rioting teens to police stations last summer and forced them to face the music for their crimes, there was overwhelming approval of their actions. When Primrose Shipman stood by her murderous husband, by contrast, she was widely condemned as deluded.

It's too simplistic to lay it at the door of 'patriarchy', sorry. You started by claiming women had to stand by their badly behaved relatives because society would condemn them if they didn't remain loyal. I pointed out two examples of where society does the polar opposite. Denial and misguided loyalty are not exclusive to one gender.

Again, just saying 'patriarchy' is meaningless. If all decisions - stand by the relative, condemn the relative or give the relative up to justice - are to be blamed on patriarchy and if it applies equally to all genders then it is a redundant concept. There is something else going on in the decision-making process and it isn't patriarchy.

I think the big difference is the nature of the crime. The rioters were guilty of crimes mainly against property. Shipman was responsible for murder. Alouisee's situation involves sex crimes, and that's where the patriarchy kicks in - because we have a centuries-old culture of male entitlement over women's bodies. Even though the law has changed and attitudes are also, there is still an inherent bias there. You only have to look at the prevalence of rape myths and reports of false allegations in the media to see that.

I'm sorry you're going through that Alouisee. It must be very awkward and deeply unpleasant. I hope you find a resolution that works for all of you.