BBC today magazine thing about France and how some areas are dropping / have dropped "Mademoiselle" for women

[SardineQueen]

bbc today

Article about how parts of France are dropping Mademoiselle and just using Madame, and saying that the Germans did this years ago.

Why are people so attached to Miss and Mrs here? When there are threads saying why not have one for men and one for women people get very exercised about the idea.

Huh? Lived in France most of my life and it's the first I've heard of this! I agree with the journalist from the independent that it's a bit of a non-issue!

As I approach 40, I love it when servers in shops or restaurants address me as "Mademoiselle", rather than "Madame" :) Makes my day :o

Oh is it not true then?

What about Germany?

If we're attached I think it's because it can be useful. I use Mrs or Ms depending on who I'm talking to and/or how I'm feeling on the day. Don't ever use 'Miss' because I think, at the grand old age of 47, my Miss days are firmly behind me. 'Mrs' is handy if I'm battleaxe mode and expecting people to cower before me. 'Ms' if I want to merge anonymously into the background.

Then again, you rarely hear someone referred to as 'Mr' these days. Not outside a school, that is.

I sometimes wonder why we need titles at all.

I find it interesting how attached people are to different modes of address.

My mum is a Dr but always used Mrs when not at work - I never really got to the bottom of why.
My MIL absolutely hated the title Ms with such force that it was quite a shocker to hear

Why are people so attached to them? Why does it matter?

Agree that at work etc it's all first-name last name these days - it comes up with utilities and banks etc

I don't think we do Ninja. Like I say, most workplaces have dropped them.

They're attached because it confers - or used to confer - status. Your mum opts to play down her Doctor status when not at work for her own reasons - maybe she doesn't want to stick out from the crowd? Others will correct you quite firmly if you get it wrong the other way around because they want you to know they're important/educated/successful. Wouldn't like to be the person that called Alan 'Mr Sugar', for example. 'Miss' ... aside from meaning unmarried is shorthand for 'young' and can therefore be flattering as vitaminC pointed out. I use 'Mrs Surname' if I'm dealing with my bank or something else official because I think allowing people to use your first name can make things too chumsy and unprofessional.

'Ms' is a horrible word. Wish we had something better. Think it sounds like a wasp with a speech impediment :)

it's true about germany, already since 1971.

if someone calls a woman "Fräulein" today is used more in the sense of "bitch" or "old spinster".

I have to admit that the Miss/Ms/Mrs thing is very confusing and a minefield. I never know how to call myself!

It's interesting isn't it.

Titles used to reinforce a pecking order in society is one reason for them I guess.

Personally I think that language is important as it shapes our view of the world.

Certainly in French-speaking Canada Mademoiselle is obsolete - if you're older than a teen it's been strictly Madame for quite a while. Mind you, Ms is also much more widely used in Canada than it is here.

I actually thought mademoiselle was no longer used. I teach French to my primary school class and they address me as Madame ... even though, in English, I am Miss .... I told them this was correct because I'd read it somewhere. I've obviously been misinformed!

How interesting that in Germany, Fraulein now means botch or spinster.

Bitch, obviously

I am now (47) of an age when Miss seems deeply innappropriate but I am not married, I never will marry and so I find Mrs very wrong. It irks me. Can I not be Ms? Please? And why do people always want to know? I think I might take up Prof as a title

I am now (47) of an age when Miss seems deeply innappropriate but I am not married,
I know what you mean. I am 40 and often feel a bit silly being Miss. It seems like the title for a young girl. People always assume I'm Mrs too and I feel doubly silly having to correct them.

They've only ever been courtesy titles. You can call yourself Mrs or Miss at any stage, it isn't dependent on marital status at all.

I live in France and have not heard anybody except little girls being addressed as Mademoiselle. If you're an adult, you're a Madame. So might be a regional thing as well, if other people say that Mademoiselle is still commonly used where they live.

I also work a lot with Americans and have not been called anything else than Ms - it seems to be only UK with this problem. Personally I prefer the Swedish approach - no titles at all. Works totally fine.

That's really interesting Hazle. It's quite easy to assume that people in different countries - especially ones that are nearby or share a language - are similar to the UK. Now it turns out that actually the UK is really quite different - old fashioned - and attached to these titles that indicate marital status for women.

I wonder why it is.

Yes, in France it's definitely linked to age, not to marital status!

"Mademoiselle" is generally used for girls/young women up to around 25 (possibly 30). After that it's systematically "Madame".

The only place it's really still used for marital status is on bank accounts etc.

Mrs and Miss are both short for Mistress (as is Ms obv). Which makes it all even more ridiculous.

We should all just choose one, I don't much care which tbh, and ditch the other two. I'm perfectly happy to answer to Miss/Mrs or Ms.

I wonder when the Mrs/Miss distinction even started?

Maybe it dates back to when women were not allowed to own property etc after they were married?

In Dale Spender' 'man made language' she says that historically miss meant young woman and mrs meant old woman- it had nothing to do with marriage.

My family are French and never use mademoiselle unless speaking about a child. I don't know anyone who does.

Lived in Germany and was never referred to as Fraulein either even though I was very young when I moved there first. (although I almost shudder at the word Frau..purely a sound thing but still.

By very young read 19.

God I'm getting old!

I watched "The Iron Lady" yesterday and absolutely loved it when the finishing titles read "Ms. Meryl Streep"! On the other hand, it seems really sad that such a 'minor thing' feels like a feminist breakthrough in the 21st century...

Jeanne Rathbone has started a petition to put an end to this misogynistic title-madness: epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/18225 Please sign it!

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alittlefeministblogonlanguage.blogspot.com/2011/10/you-just-come-here-missy.html