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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Harding- domestic violence

54 replies

Victorialucas · 05/01/2012 12:17

Just heard this on 'this morning'- the way they were talking about it made it seem like they were equally in the wrong, even though she's the one who ended up in hospital.

www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/4039996/Girls-Aloud-Sarah-Harding-Theo-De-Vries-got-me-by-the-throat.html

OP posts:
YuleingFanjo · 06/01/2012 13:49

I read this story in the daily mail (for shame) and the comments underneath were typical. Apparently it was her fault.

She clearly has an issue with drink which remains unresolved but even an addict (male or female) doesn't deserve to get beaten up.

FreudianSlipper · 06/01/2012 13:59

i too am surprised and saddened that on the feminist forum of all forums there is not more understanding about dv. i never expected to read on here they are as bad as each other as a response to a woman who ended up in hospital because a partner harmed her

yes of course there are some violent women but as thunderboltsandlightning has stated when you look into the statistics the men who report being attacked (often when the police have been called and they have to defend their actions against authority)are actually far more often than not the perpetrator. I myself was told it was not worth trying to prosecute my ex husband as he looked like he had been harmed just as much as i had, i was concussed he had scratches across his face and neck

Greythorne · 06/01/2012 14:04

She has dependency issues but I am not aware that she has been violent in previous relationships. This smacks of DA and I too am shocked at the, "both as bad as each other angle."

That blog is appalling. I scouted round it last night and found the writer to be shallow and an sad apologist for the gutter press. Criticism of those who have spoken out in the hacking scandal, justification of the wrong verdict being published in the Meredith Karcher murder....poor, very poor.

Snorbs · 06/01/2012 14:13

when you look into the statistics the men who report being attacked (often when the police have been called and they have to defend their actions against authority)are actually far more often than not the perpetrator

I'd love to look into those statistics too. Can you point me to them please?

FreudianSlipper · 06/01/2012 14:33

www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic_violence_topic.asp?section=0001000100220036&sectionTitle=Statistics

sorry can not do the linky thing

read up on dv, not women who love too much type books but people who have worked with perpetrators of dv. Pat Craven (freedom programme) and Lundy Bancroft have both written very interesting books and taken a different look at dv

Snorbs · 06/01/2012 15:16

Thanks for that. The reason I asked is that I've often seen it said that the majority of men who claim to be the victim of DV are actually the perpetrator and that any injuries they sustained were the result of self-defence. But I've never seen the proper statistics that that statement is based on and I've always wondered how big a majority it is.

I must admit a quick look through the links from that Womens Aid page you referred to didn't show any such statistics either, but I'll look at them again in more detail later.

KRITIQ · 06/01/2012 15:31

In some cases, women are violent towards their male partners as self-defence or in response to physical, emotional or sexual abuse from partners. This doesn't in any way excuse any person's use of abuse or violence of any kind in a relationship. Even if used in self-defence, it's risky.

Although this was from a book (and I'll see if I can find the quote on t'internet,) the late Suzanne Steinmetz, world renowned advocate for Battered Men stated that she accepted that the dynamics of violence towards women and towards men in relationships was different.

When women experience abuse, they tend to internalise it. They often blame themselves and/or try to "manage" the situation to stop him from being violent. Abusive men also try to convince their partners that they are to blame (e.g. you made me do it, you provoked me, etc.) Societal messages also tend to reinforce the idea that female victims of abuse are at least partly to blame, or diminish their experiences with that throw away, "why doesn't she leave it it's so bad then," comment.

When men experience abuse from a female partner, they are more likely to internalise it. Like female victims, they may feel betrayed, anxious, depressed, etc., but they tend to cite blame for the abuse firmly with the female partner. For example, they insist that she is mentally ill, has uncontrollable PMT or something like that. The crucial difference is that, unlike abused women, they don't tend to blame themselves or believe that they did anything themselves to bring it on.

That's a pretty critical difference between how men and women conceptualise their experience of abuse in a relationship. Basically, it's awful for both, but men are less likely to think that there is something inherently wrong with them because they've been abused. Their personal self-esteem doesn't take the kind of "hit" that it does for a woman.

solidgoldbrass · 06/01/2012 18:26

Hasn't Sarah Harding got form for aggressive behaviour when drunk anyway, though? Not just in terms of couple-relationships? That doesn't make her a monster, of course: just another messed up alcoholic under a lot of pressure.
I hope the poor girl sorts herself out (a part of which would definitely involve staying away from dating and definitely away from other alcoholics and addicts).

thunderboltsandlightning · 06/01/2012 19:16

He'll go on and do this to another woman of course. Who perhaps won't have the resources that Sarah Harding does to keep herself safe.

BoneyBackJefferson · 06/01/2012 19:24

"thunderboltsandlightning"

you do know that 70% of males that have suffered DV have been accused of abuse by their partner?

sunshineandbooks · 06/01/2012 19:24

I believe her. Even though her life is like a car crash and I don't think I'd like her if I met her in person, I have no problem believing her version of events. It's all too common, including a woman who defends herself ending up on the receiving end of charges herself. Sad

sunshineandbooks · 06/01/2012 19:30

In answer to your post Boney, blaming the victim or accusing them of doing what you've actually done to them, is classic perpetrator behaviour, so it comes as no surprise to me that male victims of DV have very similar experiences to female ones.

I personally believe that the situation for male victims of DV will never improve until we start doing more to deal with female victims. If the emotional and physical well-being of the 'weaker' sex aren't fought for, what hope is there for the 'stronger' sex?

BoneyBackJefferson · 06/01/2012 19:37

sunshineandbooks

Thank you

that wasn't the response I expected or recieved when I was in the middle DV.

I am actually in tears.

ThePoorMansBeckySharp · 06/01/2012 19:46

Can I ask a genuine question? Why is it that feminists scoff at 'men and women are wired differently' but consider women incapable of violence?

sunshineandbooks · 06/01/2012 20:04

Can I ask a genuine question? Why is it that feminists scoff at 'men and women are wired differently' but consider women incapable of violence?

As a feminist I believe the differences between men and women are mostly culturally enforced.

Almost from birth women are encouraged to be more compliant, passive and gentle. There are umpteen studies about this.

I believe women have the same innate capacity for violence as men. However, women have had that capacity controlled by social norms to a much greater extent than have men.

I don't know a single feminist who considers women 'incapable' of violence, but the fact remains that men are overwhelmingly more violent than women (British Crime Survey stats, etc). This is not because they are more violent by nature, but because a patriarchal society has encouraged men to be more aggressive and women to take on more caring roles.

msrisotto · 06/01/2012 20:04

'They' don't consider women incapable of violence they are paying attention to reality where men are violent against women in far far far greater numbers than the other way round.

ThePoorMansBeckySharp · 06/01/2012 20:08

This:

"Sarah Harding was defending herself."

How do you KNOW? I know of several women who have physically attacked their male partners who have just taken it because 'you can't hit a woman, even if she attacked you first.'

sunshineandbooks · 06/01/2012 20:08

Boney I'm sorry you had to experience that. DV is a horrible thing. And although it is mainly women who are the victims, that in no way lessens the horror experienced by male victims. I'm glad you're out of it.

thunderboltsandlightning · 06/01/2012 20:08

Most male victims of DV are being attacked by other men.

Nobody said that women weren't capable of violence, but as msrisotto says, it happens in tiny numbers to the massive amount of violence that men commit agasint women.

Why are we having "women do it too" on a thread about a woman who has clearly been attacked by a man and because she defended herself against having her head smashed on the floor and being pinned by her throat, has been viewed as equally culpable as him?

ThePoorMansBeckySharp · 06/01/2012 20:10

Well for a start it sounds like she initiated the violence by flinging an ashtray at his head.

sunshineandbooks · 06/01/2012 20:11

How do you KNOW? I know of several women who have physically attacked their male partners who have just taken it because 'you can't hit a woman, even if she attacked you first.'

I'm sure you do. I do as well. But if you want to assess Sarah Harding's position based on the probability of him attacking her v her attacking him, then the DV stats should lead you to support her. Besides which, he clearly didn't just take it or believe 'you can't hit a woman' because Sarah Harding ended up in hospital.

ScarlettIsWalking · 06/01/2012 20:19

She is the size of a nine penny rabbit what actual bodily harm do you think she could inflict on a strapping man like that? It sounds like she was fighting for her life and I believe her version of events 100%.

I have been in a very similar situation with an ex. I was very bruised but still got asked by my Mother how I'd provoked him. Some things never change...

sunshineandbooks · 06/01/2012 20:19

Thunderbolts I think it's inevitable we have the 'but women do it too' discussion on DV threads. I used to get frustrated but I've decided I actually quite like it now, for two reasons:

  1. It's good to debunk all the really useless studies that the MRA types trot out to show women do it in equal numbers to men (which of course they don't unless you use some really dubious methodologies). The more we do this, the more we get rid of these dangerous myths and make people face up to the fact that 4x as many women as men as killed by their partners/ex-partners each week.
  1. Agreeing that women are just as capable of violence as men but don't commit it in anywhere near the same number as men really exposes the false dichotomy that men are from mars and women from venus, and so in turns forces people to examine what - if it's not biology - is making men and women behave differently (answer being the patriarchy and gender roles of course).
Snorbs · 06/01/2012 20:24

Most male victims of DV are being attacked by other men.

That's an incredibly interesting statement. Do you have a pointer to the evidence behind it?

solidgoldbrass · 06/01/2012 20:36

Of course the vast majority of victims of DV are women being attacked by men. But in the case of two alcoholic fuckups who both have previous form for aggression, it's not that unreasonable to suggest that perhaps in this case both parties were partly to blame.
And it's certainly not the case that Sarah Harding would be fine if she'd never met this eeevil man; she was already in a mess. Just as Whateverhisfuckingnamewas who dated Amy Winehouse was not the evil genius who destroyed her, just another stupid fuckup who couldn't or didn't help her.

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