the dumbing down of the secretarial profession. Why?

[onelittlefish]

DH and I have been having a discussion about a job that was seriously considered to be a serious profession - see above. Secretaries used to be really respected and have a really good general education and be able to speak more than one language. Also, historically it was reasonably well paid.

Before the first world war almost all secretaries were men (obviously sexism), now most secretaries are women and it is a job which is really little respected - the stereotype of a secretary is of one who is a bit dumb but quite sweet. I also feel that the job has been dumbed down. When I left college 20 years ago I came out with skills that I anticipated using - shorthand being one of them, organisational skills and a grasp of legal knowledge. I have never had to use shorthand, ever. Over many years I had to prove that I was capable of organising and dealing with clients in order to gain that much sought after respect (because I think people assume that you are dumb if you are a secretary).

I want to know if people think it is not respected because it is now done by women or is it because technology requires much less of the secretary and therefore it is a much easier job. Also, why don't men want to do it? Are there any other jobs like this?

When I was a teenager doing work experience in the admin/secretarial section of a large high street bank, I asked the woman who ran the switchboard etc... 'does it not make you angry that all the managers (men) call you the switchboard 'girl'? Her reply - if you sit at a switchboard or keyboard you will always be a girl. This woman had a PhD FFS.

I think technology has almost made the job redundant. Years ago I worked as an Administrator at a top Russell Group University and I had my own Secretary, completely unnecessary. In the last organisation I worked for only the MD had a Secretary, everyone else was responsible for their own admin. I'm self-employed now and whilst it would be nice to get someone to do all the fancy spreadsheets I couldn't really imagine what else they could do for me. I think these days people are looking for a deputy, someone who can step in your shoes and do the job in your absence.

Hmm, well in the city being a secretary/PA is pretty well paid - generally £30k+ per annum, more if you work for senior people. Not bad for a job that is generally 9-5 with limited take home pressure. As such we get a lot of graduates applying.

It's not a profession, it's a support role by definition.

Pendeen, sorry,not sure what you mean. What is the definition of a profession??

Aren't loads of professions support roles? Being an anesthetist is a support role, but also a part of a respected profession and being a member of the cabinet is a support role to the PM.

Well, here's just one:

" A disciplined group of individuals who adhere to high ethical standards and uphold themselves to, and are accepted by, the public as possessing special knowledge and skills in a widely recognised, organised body of learning derived from education and training at a high level, and who are prepared to exercise this knowledge and these skills in the interest of others .

Inherent in this definition is the concept that the responsibility for the welfare, health and safety of the community shall take precedence over other considerations "

" Examples of professions include "

" health related?doctors, dentists, physiotherapists, podiatrists, pharmacists "

" non-health related?architects, chartered engineers, veterinary surgeons, chartered surveyors, lawyers "

There are many similar definitions, if you care to look.

A secretary - one who's primary function is to support the work of another - cannot be regarded as a member of a profession.

Um, I don't follow? Your definition says nothing about support work not being professional?

Well I'll tell you Pendeen, I don't get hung up on titles such as you do. My previous job as as an executive PA to a very high profile person that you would more than likely know.

I did a professional job and I consider myself a professional.

The poster asked for a definition of a profession, I gave one.

However, your point about anesthetists being in a support role doesn't quite make sense because (you may not be aware of this) they would have had to follow the same training and qualify as a doctor as the surgeon before specialising so would be part of the same profession. Hardly the same thing as a secretary.

Also, members of the Cabinet do not have to posess any academic or professional qualifications at all, so I'm afraid that example is of no use either.

Well, it depends on what you mean by Secretary - a lot of admin work in the past wasn't done by the secretary, but the 'typing pool', receptionists and office juniors, which weren't respected roles.

Secretary/PA roles now can vary massively. I know PA's on £60k, I know PA's on £20k, the jobs are very different. Those at the lower end aren't really respected roles, those at the top end usually as basically running the lives of their employers.

And I will listen to you HereWeGoLoopyLou.

I don't "get hung up on titles" at all, I am simply engaging in a light-hearted and social website discussion about the OP's definition of her occupation.

You may, of course consider yourself to be a 'professional'. That is your choice.

I do not happen to agree with you.

There is no professional body, for secretaries, they do not have to regulated.
They may do a professional job but it is not a profession.

Company secretaries have professional qualifications.

Just FYI.

In my days "the professions" were law and medicine. And that's it. Or something.

The current application of the word "profession" is a bit random to say the least. In the sense of professionalism, IMO top notch PAs need it in spades as they are often privy to extremely sensitive info. Some of the PAs I have worked with have been the most professionally behaved at all times out of everyone (including the top brass).

Semantics innit.

Nowadays there's a "professional" qualification for everything, and every tom dick and harry thinks he's a "professional".

If you can become a "professional" in say financial services by sitting a couple of piss easy exams then I for one am more than happy to extend that title to people with as much expertise as the average PA.

why won't anyone say what dates they're talking about, when secretaries were so respected? It's always in the past, but when?

Well it wasn't me who said it in the first place but I was under the impression that secretaries were often male and it was a very good occupation in the 20s / 30s.

On googling to check I found this BRILLIANt article which I think you should all read. I have only got as far as the first paragraph and that has contained enough corkers to keep me going for a while. Like this:

""They tend to use more computer packages and, with their natural desire to take machines apart, they play around with IT more." says McGlaughlin. "Women are more conservative in the office - men will take more risks, and male secretaries are flexible in approach. Women welcome men in the office, and will look after them. It's excellent to have a balance.""

My idea on that is based on reading PG Wodehouse books BTW

The lords and types always have a male secretary.
Thinking about it I bet the royals etc still do.

People like Cabinet Secretary (Sir Humphrey) as well - they were called Secretaries as that was their role and it was and still is extraordinarily high profile and prestigious.

humourous fiction is not a good historical record.

No, hence my grin

However the rest is true
And my idea about teh 20s / 30s might be
The article seemed to think so anyway

Company secretaries are a different thing to a PA type secretary though Sardine - they are one of the officers legally responsible for running a company with similar responsibilities to the directors.

I think the maim change in how secretaries are viewed is down to technology. I am a solicitor and used to have a PA. I very rarely used her as I would usually do day to day correspondence on email/ phone and didn't need to follow it up with letters very often - when I did, I was generally as quick typing myself as dictating and correcting letters or notes.

As email has become the default (and people are expected to be able to deal with emails anywhere), there are fewer people who need the professional and hyper organised type secretary and the secretarial role becomes more that of an office dogsbody.

Yes azaello but that's the point - the title itself can mean a host of things - it used to be a prestigious role as evidenced by roles like company secretary and cabinet secretary. If it was never prestigious those roles would be called something else IYSWIM.

It used to be that a secretary could write in particular (specialist) styles no-one else could write, but that is going back centuries. Back then there were professional bodies regulating it.

However, Pendeen, despite your slightly patronizing tone about anesthetists being doctors (yes, I did know that .. it was kinda the point), the fact remains you've advanced a definition then blithely ignored it. If you wish to define 'professional' as non-support workers and those who have a regulating body for their job title, feel free - but the definition you gave doesn't actually say that!

"clerk" used to be a prestigious job title, as well.

Yes that's true but I'm not sure what that has to do with the thread?