the dumbing down of the secretarial profession. Why?

[onelittlefish]

DH and I have been having a discussion about a job that was seriously considered to be a serious profession - see above. Secretaries used to be really respected and have a really good general education and be able to speak more than one language. Also, historically it was reasonably well paid.

Before the first world war almost all secretaries were men (obviously sexism), now most secretaries are women and it is a job which is really little respected - the stereotype of a secretary is of one who is a bit dumb but quite sweet. I also feel that the job has been dumbed down. When I left college 20 years ago I came out with skills that I anticipated using - shorthand being one of them, organisational skills and a grasp of legal knowledge. I have never had to use shorthand, ever. Over many years I had to prove that I was capable of organising and dealing with clients in order to gain that much sought after respect (because I think people assume that you are dumb if you are a secretary).

I want to know if people think it is not respected because it is now done by women or is it because technology requires much less of the secretary and therefore it is a much easier job. Also, why don't men want to do it? Are there any other jobs like this?

I suppose it's seen as a support role and that anyone with the brains should be running the business themselves (I don't agree with this, obviously).

Maybe nurses are seen in a similar light?

Nurses are seen in a similar light aren't they? Although now nursing has become a degree job it is more respected.

I find it really odd that there are almost no male secretaries.

It is definitely a support role (which is what it always has been), however, the requirements to get onto a course have lowered and the level of education required and expectations from employers for secretaries is shockingly low.

Most secretaries that I know are degree educated. I was previously an Executive Assistant, PA and Office Manager and every job I have applied for or done has required a degree. The status has been similar to any other graduate type role within the company.

However, since I've moved to a new role within the same organisation I have found that I am still the go to for any admin type requests - even things like birthday collections, arranging drinks for visitors etc. It seems once a secretary, always a lowly member of the team regardless of title.

I've never worked anywhere with secretaries, I think the modern equivalent is PA which is generally considered to be an important role which can earn you a lot of money.

In the places I have worked it has been "admin" that has been the bottom of the ladder, and that roles seems to have been a mix of men and women.

Maybe you are thinking of a different industry? I've mainly worked in large financial sector type companies. Would be interesting to hear where you have been working as it sounds very different.

I am a secretary (medical). I'm not a graduate and the job is quite challenging, mostly because as fast as I learn one way of doing something the ruddy nhs go and change it again

I work in an open office with three other secretaries and largish pool of receptionists. Without fail every single one of these people is a woman which baffles me a bit. It seems in my work place the men either work at the top (doctor) or at the bottom (caretaker). There isn't a single man in the admin department either on the floor or in management. Someone once suggested to me that this was possibly because the wages aren't brilliant so men as the primary providers for a family ( ) go elsewhere where they can earn more. I reckon that's bollocks because if that were true then how come men are working as caretakers where the wages are lower than the admin staff?

The secretaries I know are drawn to it because they like to take care of people and feel needed. I think that appeals more to women than men (because of socialisation messages).

I think organisations and sectors that have "secretaries" tend to have very defined roles and professions - legal, medical, academic etc...- however good you are as a secretary you won't progress to become a doctor, lawyer or professor.

Sectors and jobs that are more about general management, marketing, budgeting, people management etc... tend to have "assistants" and there is more chance to progress from assistant to boss.

In my anecdotal experience you get a mix of young men and women in assistant roles but mainly women in career "secretary"'jobs.

"Secretaries used to be really respected and have a really good general education and be able to speak more than one language. Also, historically it was reasonably well paid.[...]Before the first world war almost all secretaries were men (obviously sexism), now most secretaries are women and it is a job which is really little respected"

I think the answer is there ^, it's really that simple.

At one time I had a male secretary. Most people, on being introduced to us by name only the first time, assumed he (a good 15 years younger than me) was the boss. Daft buggers.

I had a similar experience with an intern Sports. My role had two secretaries attached and an assistant. I found that the older secretary was incredible in her role and took it seriously, the younger one was less qualified and didn't take their role as seriously (reflected in review). Take from that what you will. I had a meeting with an intern sitting in (younger male) where another professional found themselves in the embarrassing situation of backtracking after addressing the intern as if the roles were reversed. I do think that was down to gender. Strange thing was that agenda paperwork was clear as to the roles folk had.

A fairly large amount of supporting admin type work that used to be part of a secretarial role has been added to managers' job descriptions in many companies. 20 yrs ago my DHs role would definitely have had a PA/secretary attached to it, but now it doesn't and he manages his own diary, travel bookings, inbox, etc. Any secretarial support he'd get is very low level admin - ie someone is responsible for ordering stationery for the whole office, answering phones etc. This has contributed to the downgrading of that kind of role.

Also a lot of the status accorded to secretarial roles used to be attached to the post they supported - in my old work (financial services) executives' secretaries used to have some perks (including an executive secretaries Christmas lunch that you had to attend with your boss )

In the professions, eg legal, medical the docs and solicitors still dictate the majority of their notes and correspondence so the role has remained relatively unchanged.

I think secretaries used to get a certain amount of respect as the sort of caretakers of the office -- the ones who really kept everything on track.

I think this has eroded a great deal because of technology. Nowadays, everyone can type, keep track of their contacts and calendar, etc. So secretaries are not so much doing things that their bosses can't do, but the things that their bosses can't be bothered to do (massive generalisation of course).

I think that might be a huge part of it, dreamingbohemian.

I'm a medical secretary and work place union rep. I'm currently trying to get our title changed to PA. I am worried that we will be downbanded in the forthcoming 'admin review'. Less money, same work.

scoundrel may I ask what band they pay you and what part of the country you are in?

Oops sorry... just realised that was a bit off-topic and a slight thread hijack

I was once in the lift at work and introduced to the MD of a sister company. I assumed the MD was the competant looking woman standing next to me in the lift, rather than the rather scruffy, smelly unshaven man also in the lift. Wen the people in the lift realised my mistake, there was much mirth and mickey-taking based on the hilarious idea that a woman could be an MD.
Hmmmmmmm.

Hi nightsky I'm not banded, I work for the surgery and not the NHS. I'm in the SW.

I've been a med sec for over 20 years and seen much 'dumbing down' in that time. When I started you had to have the medical secretarial diploma to even get an interview.

I attended a med sec conference at Unison in London last year... we did a brain storming sesh about why we are looked down on these days and get overlooked and paid poorly. I suddenly realised and put my hand up.... 'we are WOMEN DOING WOMEN'S WORK'

scoundrel you need to be looking at Band 4 if you are a med sec. Check out Dept of Health website... Agenda for change job profiles.

scuse shite typing - wine.

I think technology has also contributed to the role of a secretary being seen as less these days and all the men have moved to IT.

There are so few women in IT, which is a well paid industry.

onelittlefish "DH and I have been having a discussion about a job that was seriously considered to be a serious profession - see above. Secretaries used to be really respected and have a really good general education and be able to speak more than one language. Also, historically it was reasonably well paid."

When do you think that was? In your lifetime?

what year did she start, brandy?

I think there's a converse of that as well though brandy which is as other career options have become available to women some of the 'old fashioned' jobs have attracted different types of candidates. So the women who speak 3 languages now can pick and choose, whereas before they were restricted to nursing, teaching or secretarial. That's not to down-grade your Gran's achievements. But in today's world she would most likely be the boss, rather than the secretary. In a sense, that's cheering, no?

Interesting thread for me as I have a medical background but gave my career up nearly 4 years ago when DD came along.

I applied for a doctors receptionist role when I started looking for work again but was told I was too experienced and should go back to the Emergency services. I didn't want to go back to the anti social hours and I would also need to re-train so that wasn't an option for me.

I had an MD approach me through friends and basically offered me a PA/ secretarial position that became available within a large company (not medical)
I knew nothing about secreterial work but was told it's easy, bit of paperwork and common sense.
I'm 9 months in a full time position working part time hours, suits me for childcare but the secreterial role is looking after 3 managers and 70+ staff, HR, Payroll and daily taking care of.

I'm dissapointed because no-one knows what the role of secretary/PA involves, it's hard work (I don't mind) but I really feel like some people see me as the dogs body of the company. I can be up to my ears in work and still expected to drop everything to make tea for the men managers, it really sticks in my throat, why can't they make their own tea? They can see the machine from their meeting room! Why in 9 months have they never made me a green tea inbetween meetings?

I don't need praise, I'm capable of getting every document for 5 men people ready for them to meet and also type the minutes and arrange times and dates for meetings but I can't help but feel disrespected.

I'm only the secretary, if only they knew.

And that long rant doesn't include how the female reception staff and other female admin staff appear to have some grudge over a PA/secretary because I am involved in managers meetings/their appraisals/deal with their personal files.

Wilson that is a good point and heartening.