Culture/religion clash - WWYD

[WilsonFrickett]

I'll keep the background short and I think the situation will probably end up being hypothetical but I'm really interested in people's take on this.

In Primary 1, my DS was very good friends with a boy from a very devout Muslim family. We've visited each other's houses a few times, and went to the park after school a lot. This year the boys have been in different classes and the friendship has cooled a bit, plus I haven't been doing the 'playdate' thing much as we're in a small flat, so I haven't seen much of them.

We're moving and I sent a Christmas card with phone no and new address saying I hoped they would keep in touch. The mum stopped me in the playground today to say they would, but they could only visit if my DH wasn't there - she wasn't comfortable being in a house with a man in it.

I just kind of smiled and nodded, but the more I think about it the more perplexed I am. WWYD in that situation, from a feminist perspective? (I know the obvious solution is to meet on neutral ground, but in terms of the request itself?). Would you 'bar' DH from his own house just to make a visitor feel comfortable? Is that a reasonable request?

Come to think of it there are a few male family members I'd like to be segregated from this Xmas

As a Muslim normally if my friends come round then Dh stays in another room and same if I.go to.friends houses, however we would greet and have general chat with husband, also islamicaly it is not isolation if a third person is there ie the wife so is fine as long as not flirty etc.

With regards to this woman, I would invite her when Dh was out or elsewhere, if I wanted.to help her. I would.check cc etc for Esol classes. If.this.wasn't.too hard for me then we would have a hello goodbye relationship in playground.

Wow! why the need to go down the 'i am not jumping in bed with my male firends' route??? That was totally unneccessary!

There is nothing wrong with trying to accommodate someone else's needs as an act of hospitality. A lot of cultures will go all out to accommodate their guests and not try to slot them into their own lifestyles. I have known children and parents to give up their bedrooms quite happily for guests in these cultures for days or weeks - they would not dream of putting the guest on a air bed! Slightly going off the point, i know... what i am trying to get across is that she hasn't made an awful request and she hasnt been rude. If her request is putting a huge strain on the OP's DH and cannot be accommodated, then fair enough. But if it is simply a case of inviting her around when he is not in, then what is wrong with that? In these other cultures what tends to happen is that should DH come home that bit earlier than expected, the lady will thank you for your hospitality and quite happily get up and leave as it is the polite thing to do!

OP as other's have said her request is not that unusual. I don't really get why its a problem from a feminist point of view, as she hasn't said her husband forbid her or anything maybe its just her own choice as its not the norm to mix between the sexes and she feels more comfy. It would be a shame to lose the friendship over it if you like her so why not just go with meeting up on neutral ground or invite when your dh is out, surely he must be out at some times??
I don't think it's offensive to your dh, I often say to mine if I have a friend coming round in the evening that can he not come home too early please and he is fine with it. For him socialising with his friends (all male) they mainly do so outside of the house so he would never say for me to go out cos his friends are coming, and if they do come then i just sit in another room. If its one of his friends who I do kind of know then i will say salam to them and get them drinks n ask how are you etc then leave but if i dont know them i just keep totally out of the way and leave dh to it.

I can't see why it is a problem from a feminist's point of view. It seems to me much more problematic from a feminist point of view that some women feel they cannot form a friendship with another woman and invite that woman to their house without the participation of their husband.

Some people choose to see their friends without their partner around, some prefer to have company as a couple. Clearly, there is nothing wrong with either. I imagine that the OP feels a bit weird about the situation because she is being told what to do in her own home.

If a childless friend asked that you clear your kids out of the house when they visit, would you be ok about it? No doubt some people would accept it and be fine, but others would no doubt see it as rude and feel pissed off!

Also, I get the feeling that this isn't simply about the practicalities of how to meet up but about how to accommodate cultural differences without anyone getting offended, while trying to encourage tolerance on both sides.

If it's just a matter of practicalities, of course there is bound to be a time when your partner is out or away, and you can just invite her then. Or I'm sure you can even arrange for her to come and just ask him to go out that day/evening with some mates. Or, if he's not particularly happy about that, you meet up on neutral ground.

I suspect you are uncomfortable about being made to behave in a particular way to comply with a religion that you (rightly or wrongly) feel may have attitudes toward women that you are not comfortable with - hence the 'from a feminist perspective' issue.

Again, personally I would just be open about it. Meet up with her (wherever that is) and at some point have a chat about it, in an easy relaxed way. Hopefully it will lead to both sides better understanding each others views/beliefs so that there won't be this feeling of awkwardness in the future.

Western society has attitudes about women that I'm not comfortable with, that is why I am a feminist. It isn't really a matter of happening to see it as being rude and being annoyed by it, it is what expectations that person has that lead them to view the other person as rude.

And the expectation is that the woman's partner has the right to be present at all times and that the idea that the woman might have some time alone with her friends in her own home is somehow so bizarre that somebody wanting to spend time with just that woman and not her husband is rude.

dh would rather eat his own toes than sit with me and my friends! He vanishes onto a computer when my friends come over.

I agree with MrsLadywoman - it is not so much about the practicalities or even if it is ok to ask your DH to clear out for a bit because you want the house to yourself.

It is that you feel uncomfortable complying with a request that you think is unreasonable, and becoming complicit in upholding a tradition that constrains people's freedom to do something quite ordinary - that is get to know other people regardless of whether they are male or female.

You could, like MillyR suggests pretend that this is a perfectly normal girls night in/out situation rather than part of a set of restrictive religious/cultural prescriptions, but that is not really what is going on, and in the end my guess is you will feel more and more uncomfortable.

So I guess the question is how important is this particular friendship to you/your son and will it overcome such a gulf in personal values.

I was invited once to an eid celebration by a male colleague. I attended with my dh. My colleague came to say hi, brought me over to where his wife and other women were sat and then left for the other side of the room with my dh. I didn't know the wife! But it was fine. I accepted that it was part of their culture etcetc.

The point is, I think if you want to maintain this friendship it may be that you need to understand where she's coming from with this request. It's not unreasonable I don't think. It's unusual but not unreasonable.

But she clearly is fine with it so I would be respectful and invite her over when I know dh won't be there.

Thanks everyone for your responses, Just catching up now post-Christmas. I think it's about the difference between the particular (of course I can just catch up with this particular friend when DH isn't around, or meet on neutral ground, it is no problem) to the general (I do personally feel this is a restrictive cultural/religious prescription and I do feel uncomfortable with it).

In the same way as up thread a couple of posters used the word 'opressed' - I didn't btw - but of course it's not for me to tell individual people they are being oppressed by choices they freely make, that would clearly be ridiculous. But many women in the world are oppressed by the same choices which have not been freely made, IYSWIM.

anyway, thanks again for responses, food for thought as always.

Because I am a polite person who likes to make her guests feel at ease I guess I would ask her when DH was away. However, as someone who chooses her company and friends from people I "jell" with irrespective of their sex, I can't imagine having anything in common with someone who has a problem being around men in a social situation. It seems so, well, infantile somehow...

I have just put this "problem" to my DH who is an African Muslim. He says that the African women in question is being unreasonable and that there is nothing in the Quran that forbids this kind of brief contact*

*presumably your DH might stick his head round the door and say "hi" rather than joining you both for tea and gossip!