Culture/religion clash - WWYD

[WilsonFrickett]

I'll keep the background short and I think the situation will probably end up being hypothetical but I'm really interested in people's take on this.

In Primary 1, my DS was very good friends with a boy from a very devout Muslim family. We've visited each other's houses a few times, and went to the park after school a lot. This year the boys have been in different classes and the friendship has cooled a bit, plus I haven't been doing the 'playdate' thing much as we're in a small flat, so I haven't seen much of them.

We're moving and I sent a Christmas card with phone no and new address saying I hoped they would keep in touch. The mum stopped me in the playground today to say they would, but they could only visit if my DH wasn't there - she wasn't comfortable being in a house with a man in it.

I just kind of smiled and nodded, but the more I think about it the more perplexed I am. WWYD in that situation, from a feminist perspective? (I know the obvious solution is to meet on neutral ground, but in terms of the request itself?). Would you 'bar' DH from his own house just to make a visitor feel comfortable? Is that a reasonable request?

No it is not a reasonable request- just meet on neutral ground.

Meet on neutral ground, or when your DH is elsewhere, but I wouldn't be sending him out because she isn't comfortable with his presence.
Doesn't sound as if the friendship has much life left in it really.

No Dust I don't think it does tbh, it was very much built round the day-to-day school stuff, which is fine. Lets face it, it could never really become a deep friendship if she'd never visit my house when DH was in it! I think she's very isolated outwith her own community, she doesn't have much English for example - but I do think it's shocking that in this day and age the cultural/religious norms stop her doing something as simple as visiting another woman in case that woman's DH is working from home that day.

I used to teach in a community like that, it is confusing at times.

If she won't come to the house when DH is there, and DH could potentially be there any time on any day, then she simply can't come to your house. It would be very unreasonable to bar DH from the house to accomodate her. And from the way you've worded it, it doesn't sound like she would expect you to, but is more just explaining the situatoin so that you know it's not that she doesn't like you.

Just see her on neutral territory - it doesn't sound like you'll be depriving either child of a deep friendship, and there's not much you can do to reduce her isolation if she's going to follow these cutural expectations.

Definitely not reasonable. My DH is muslim and has one or two religious friends. They're welcome at ours - so long as I can still be comfortable in my own home.

Being in something like your DH's situation, I would flat out refuse to disappear to make his mates happy. I also won't dress differently just because they are around. You're either happy to visit me and accept the way I live or you can't visit. It's my home too after all!

Meet her at a different spot or tell her you'll go to hers if you feel like it.

I think AMum is right, she was maybe trying to say she'd like to come but couldn't, but it wasn't that she didn't want to see me again.

I'm starting to get wound up about how she can possibly learn better English, make new friends, properly settle if she's so locked into these norms.

Sorry, meant to say Dude that's exactly how I feel, it's our home, we're perfectly nice people, if you can't take us both you don't get one of us, IYSWIM.

I think I'd put this down to lost in translation. I can kind of understand where she's coming from - its usual that men & women socialise separately in the ME, for instance. If my DH has male friends around, I leave them to it so they can talk without fear of offending my feminine sensibilities. . If I had female friends around, DH would make himself scarce, as he wouldnt think it was appropriate to sit down for coffe with a group of women, although not necessarily out of the house.

The roots of this would be in respect for ladies who cover, so that they may remove scarves etc without non related men seeing them.
I think she's just letting you know that she would be more comfortable visiting you when your DH is out, rather than it be a demand that no men should be in the house.

I would be fine with it.

If it isn't convenient for you to find a time when your DH is out to have her round, then don't invite her.

But it wouldn't bother me and I would be happy to continue a friendship with somebody who only wanted my company and didn't want contact with DH.

I completely agree with VirgoGrr and MillyR. Her request is not bizarre and it is certainly not implying that you send DH out of the house specifically to accommodate - although you could always invite her if DH is not home anyway.

A lot of people do not comprehend how hard it is to inform others of these things when it is not their cultural norm! Hats off to her for trying to interact despite having poor English and other cultural barriers. My advice - if it is easy for you, then do it - otherwise just leave it. :-)

I do find a bit odd sometimes, the pitying attitude to 'oppressed' Muslim women not being able to socialise as they like.

All the social arrangements in my husbands family are entirely dictated for the convenience of the women of the family and their female guests. My husband was quite used to being kicked out of the house as a teenager to allow his mothers friends to come for coffee and take their scarves off. Although, I found that a bit harsh, tbh.

For me, (not Muslim, btw) I really wouldn't be interested in socialising with your DH unless my husband was with me. I would find it quite odd if he makes a habit of hanging out with you and your friends at home.

Just to be clear: I don't think you should not have her over if your DH is away anyway.

What I do think is unreasonable is for you to tell your DH that he is not allowed to come home early because X will be there. Or to send him down to the pub so that X may come around. It's his home at the end of the day, she's a guest.

In terms of the segregated socialising thing that is prevalent in the ME: my PIL live in an ME country and very much do this. I have no general objections to it as such, but the implementation bothers me, namely the women serving tea/coffee to the men thing that they do and which is absolutely not reciprocal. And the fact that the women in DH's family, while mostly lovely, tend to have absolutely nothing in common with me. I'd really rather talk to the other engineers in the family than discuss embroidery (my ILs seem to have a massive thing for that) - but they're men and that's hence not on.

VirgoGrr: I really wouldn't be interested in socialising with your DH unless my husband was with me. I would find it quite odd if he makes a habit of hanging out with you and your friends at home.

Really?!

I didn't think I was pitying actually. What she told me (and yes, perhaps some of it did get lost in translation, one of the reasons why I posted) was that she wouldn't visit if my husband was in the house, not that she'd prefer him to be in another room. I socialise a lot without my DH, but when people are in our home I would be extremely miffed with him if he didn't come in and say 'hi', offer to make a cup of tea, chat with DCs. Surely that's what two people who share a home would do, be sociable to each other's friends?

And there are also these people called 'joint friends' Virgo. Two in particular are as much DH's friends as mine I'd like to catch him not sitting down with them for a gossip.

MrsLadyWoman Yes. We either socialise as a couple, or we have friends of our own sex. Are you entirely comfortable talking about personal matters in front of your friends husbands? And would they be comfortable listening?

I have had female friends who have 'clingy' husbands or boyfriends who sit down like a spare part attached to their partner and contribute nothing - it's weird.

I'm not criticising anyone's preferences wilsonfrickett, I'm just pointing out that you can't say things like "how she can...settle if she's so locked into these norms" without sounding a bit patronising. I have never heard of anyone being so strict that they cannot enter a house with someone else's husband present. I think there has been something of a misunderstanding. Of course it is only polite for your partner to greet your guests. There, we diverge though - my DH is not a gossiper. You haven't said anything about how this lady dresses?

NotADudeExactly seems to have more traditional PIL than me. Mine find it entirely acceptable to have mixed company, conversation and dancing. Can't remember having to have a conversation about embroidery. Separate socialising doesn't usually happen simultaneously in our family. I don't get huffy about serving coffee either, I'm not treated like a servant.

Virgo.

Huffy? Really? And you're accusing the op of being patronising?

Besides I don't think was about serving coffee in itself but about the lack of reciprocity. If serving coffee isn't a big deal then what's the problem with men serving women coffee?

Op I think you should reverse it and ask yourself how you would feel if dh had friend over that couldn't be in same room as you. Best option is to meet somewhere neutral but I wouldn't kick poor old dh out.

Ok, I was just skating over the details, but if anyone's really interested in the nuances of Arab hospitality, I was just picking up that notadudeexactly seems to be oversimplifying things. My impression is that she seems to see the coffee thing as an act of subjugation, to be railed against, whereas it is more of a gesture of affection to visitors or older family members coupled with the fact that Arab women are generally homemakers and don't let men into their kitchens as a point of principle.

If we have visitors, DH is not sitting on his arse waiting to be served, he's doing his bit with serving food, finding cushions, ashtrays, argileh etc. And that's for the benefit of both sexes.

Besides, one of DHs friends makes better coffee than me, so he makes it in our house and serves me, does that make everyone happier?

Does your DH work from home? Is he always in?

I think you should respect her wishes just like you wouldn't cook a Jewish person pork if they visited. Surely there are plenty of times when DH is out you could arrange a play date?

Virgo she's from Africa. She covers her hair but not her face.
I didn't mean to be patronising. I know from conversations we've had that, for example, she's desperate to improve her English so she can help her son with his school work. I think that the norms she's following reduce her chances of being able to do that, because she's restricting her ability to visit English-speakers in their home. I did say upthread that perhaps something has been lost in translation. I'm not looking for a bunfight here - if I was I would have posted in AIBU

Virgo Believe it or not, I actually have friends of the opposite sex and so does my partner. We aren't about to leap into bed with any of them and don't find their partners 'clingy' (same sex or not) if they want to join in a conversation when we're visiting.

If I want to have a gossip session with a female friend, I'm quite happy to do that in front of her partner. If he gets bored, he'll be happy to park himself in another room/in front of the TV/computer, but I certainly don't need to make sure he's cleared out of his own house for me to feel comfortable having a chat to my friend!

Re the op, I would explain to the woman that this is a bit of a struggle for you, re ushering hubby out of the house so she can visit. Just explain that as much as her not being comfortable around your husband, in your home, is an issue for her, that same request is a bit of an issue for you. So perhaps, then, best to meet on neutral territory.

Either arrange for her to visit when your H is at work/out with his mates/away on business, or arrange to meet her on neutral territory.

It's not rocket science, is it?

I shared the information that I choose not to socialise with my friends' husbands unless we're in mixed company. I do socialise with men on a professional basis and if we're socialising as a couple. I am not segregated, locked in a cupboard when visitors come or ignored because I'm female.

This is a personal choice, which is my prerogative. I don't understand why anyone has a problem with that personal choice, and I'm not telling anyone their choices are wrong. I opened this line of conversation to try to shed some light on the OPs question about why this lady prefers to visit when no men are present. Why that provokes the need to state that you aren't jumping into bed with your male friends, I have no idea.

On the whole, reviewing some of the advice on this thread, I despair at what passes for British hospitality.

SolidGold, I agree completely. However, most posters on this thread cannot see the wood for the trees.