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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

gender identity disorder - and the brains wired/not wired differently theories?

13 replies

raspberryroop · 20/12/2011 21:34

Recent medical research on the brain structures of transgendered individuals have shown that some transgendered individuals have the physical brain structures that resemble their desired sex even before hormone treatment.

And most people express dysmorpia from a very young age - so why ? if as some on here argue there is no difference in brain make up ? Curious as to what people think as have a friend who is affected

Personally I think it is very similar profile to sexual orientation ie some at the extrema but most people somewhere along a spectrum. - but very happy to be wrong.

OP posts:
PlumpDogPillionaire · 20/12/2011 21:57

I don't think anyone was arguing that aren't differences in brain structure, raspberry, just that difference in brain structure because of gender doesn't justify gender inequality.

raspberryroop · 20/12/2011 22:32

I think some of the thread was like that but a lot on this thread and other threads /books suggest that there are only socialisation differences

OP posts:
MillyR · 20/12/2011 22:36

There isn't a scientific consensus on this. There was a literature review posted on a thread a while back that covered research into the influences of sex and gender on the brain. I can't remember which thread it was on though. You might be able to find something similar through google scholar.

raspberryroop · 20/12/2011 22:47

Thanks will have a look

OP posts:
thunderboltsandlightning · 20/12/2011 23:15

What recent medical research is that then?

KRITIQ · 20/12/2011 23:29

I tend to agree with the idea of all people falling somewhere on a spectrum, whether it relates to sexual orientation or sexual identity, but I don't think it the reasons one "sits" in a particular spot are neatly determined by biology or social conditioning.

Imho, there are alot of problems with trying to pin down a biological rational for why someone might be Lesbian or bisexual or transexual or anything on the spectra of identities. It's usually only a few steps then to some people talking about a "treatment" for those who are "different," or at least "screening" to prevent "different" children being born. Also, I personally don't think it's entirely possible or particularly beneficial to find scientific answers for how people "feel" about themselves/their identities OR how and who they choose to be in relationships with. It's like trying to find scientific evidence that love exists. You could waste a stack of research grants and come up with nothing remotely useful to anyone!

I'd prefer to see the dosh going into challenging the structures that perpetuate social injustice and oppression.

raspberryroop · 20/12/2011 23:37

Brain structure
In the first of its kind, Zhou et al (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls which, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[20]
In a followup study, Kruijver et al (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[21]
In 2002, a followup study by Chung, De Vries, and Swaab found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.[22]
In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[23] Swaab (2004) concurs.[24]
In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al (1995) and Kruijver et al (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.[25]
While MRI images cannot resolve as fine details as structures such as BSTc and INAH3, they can much more easily allow the study of larger brain structures. In Luders et al (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. While regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women, there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[26]
An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[27]
A cautionary note is sounded in Hulshoff Pol et al (2006), which studied the changes in transsexual brains on hormone administration over four months via MRI. They discovered that whole brain volume for subjects, as well as hypothalamic volume for androgen treatment, and potentially more sexually dimorphic structures in that region, change significantly toward the size of the opposite gender during hormone treatment. The study does not criticize the controls used to account for this in the BSTc or INAH3 studies.[28] The study additionally concluded that before hormonal treatment, total brain volumes of the subjects were equivalent according to birth sex.

OP posts:
MillyR · 21/12/2011 00:03

Okay, so the research you have linked to contradicts your original post. The part of the brain referred to becomes sexually dimorphic in adulthood. So that dimorphism could be caused either by environmental or genetic factors. It isn't evidence at all for a genetic difference between male and female brains or for transgender experiences.

thunderboltsandlightning · 21/12/2011 07:51

That looks like a big cut and paste from someone's website, not a direct citing of the work. We'd need to see what sort of sample sizes they were using for example, and what their controls were.

thunderboltsandlightning · 21/12/2011 07:53

The other question would be where do people think sex resides? In our bodies and in our chromosomal structure, or in small parts of the brain which I'm pretty sure would be impossible to sex if no other information was given.

All this research appears to be working back to an agreed starting point, not forward.

TheBrandyButterflyEffect · 21/12/2011 09:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

messyisthenewtidy · 21/12/2011 10:14

Brandy I think you have answered your own question! The fact that so many people are coming out and saying "well I don't fit into the gender pigeonhole" means that the Status Quoers have to come out with new theories to justify their increasingly untenable beliefs. Just like all that Victorian talk about emancipation led to renewed theories on gender and the Angel in the House theory.

All that male/female empathizing/systematizing brain theory is a pile of unscientific generalizations and we ourselves are the best evidence for that. I cry at soppy movies AND I like nothing more than a bit of algebra. When I was a kid people used to call me a tomboy. I just thought I was a girl who liked to climb trees. How many more exceptions to the rule do there need to be before people realize that categorization is meaningless?

And if someone somewhere did finally manage to prove that boys are in fact 3% more likely to possess a maths genius gene and girls are genetically slightly more inclined to feel empathy then so frikking what? What's the point in saying so? As soon as you say it it becomes a factor affecting the outcome. Social factors are enormous in dissuading people from realizing their individual potential. We know that because we have all experienced it.

vesuvia · 21/12/2011 13:29

"One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts"

One.

One.

That is, one in three billion males who have never taken female hormones has what someone regards as "the female" neuron count.

Sample sizes and definition of boundaries of what constitutes "the female range" and "the male range" of biological characteristics seem to be key factors in evaluating the credibility of this research (which I believe raspberryroop probably copied and pasted from the Wikipedia article on the causes of transsexualism).

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