What do you say to someone who doesn't believe in feminism because "men and womens brains are wired differently"?

[LittleWhiteWolf]

I can't get my head around it. The friend in question is intelligent and educated and not stupid at all, yet spouts this as the reason why feminism, why equality doesn't work. Where she sees scientific and historical evidence to support this, I just see opinions. Apparently because men are the typical hunter gatherers and women the nuturers, we should just accept that. I'm just getting so sad listening to this.

Anyone got any tips one what one says to someone so mired in this belief???

It's an explanation, not an excuse.
Push those predetermined boundaries!

Even if she believes that men and women are wired differently, what does that have to do with their being equal.

If it is causing problems in your friendship and making you sad, do you need to keep discussing it with her? We don't have to only be friends with those who agree with us

So how does her 'belief' actually negate 'equality'?
Does she think women should spend their days picking flowers while men go around looking for things, or something?
I mean what is it that she thinks women can't do (other than impregnate other people)?
Sorry, ridiculously glib sounding, I know, but how does she think that being a 'hunter' justifies having power over 'gatherers'?
(Introduce her to a few Jack Russell Terriers, perhaps. According to her theory they should be running the world.)

If a woman is good at maths, does that mean they are actually a man?
If a man is a patient and nurturing parent, does that mean he is actually a woman?
If a woman can read a map, does that make her a man?
If a man really enjoys shopping, does that mean he is really a woman?

It's a stupid proposition.

What do you enjoy doing that is stereotypically enjoyed / done by men?
Tell her that and ask her if she thinks you are a bloke.

But surely even those who believe in equal but different have a place in the feminist movement? Could you explain that even if we are different, feminism exists to guarantee equality in pay, treatment, value etc.

Sure they do.

I think there may be a difference on average but that is neither here nor there really. They don't if know if there is a difference on average and if so how large it is.

I think that the male brain / female brain stuff is invariably used to keep women in their place, and stop them getting uppity. Also terrible for men who do not think / behave according to "type".

"Apparently because men are the typical hunter gatherers and women the nuturers, we should just accept that"

This.
Not helpful to anyone.

Is she glad that women have the right to an education, the right to vote, the right to own property, that rape in marriage is illegal etc etc.

Was it a case that she is very happy to have those things but enough - no more for us women?

I don't really see why believing that men and women are different means that you also have to believe one is superior to the other. Anyway, her facts are wrong. Men were not hunter-gathers. Men were the hunters and women the gathers so both provided food. Different roles, perhaps, but surely of equal importance??

But if you believe that men and women have fundamentally different brains, where does that leave the people who do not conform to type?

What does "wired differently" mean?

The wires in men's heads go into areas for sex, motoring, using power-tools and earning lots of money areas, which are mathematically defined and bold
The wires in women's heads go into a soft fluffy area filled with flowers and babies and nothing too tricky and it's all pink

HTH

i don't see why you have to say anything to her? surely if she's an intelligent woman she's as entitled to her opinion as you are?

(broadly speaking i agree with your friend that, obviously only in my experience, i've found men & women to be 'differently wired', but that doesn't mean i think women shouldn't be allowed to go to work/vote/wear trousers/whatever)

read Cordelia Fine's "Delusions of Gender" for some good debunking of all that evolutionary pseudoscientific guff

The science is on our side

In what way have you found them to be differently wired, mrsravelstein?

i think you're overanalysing the 'wired differently' phrase, sardinequeen... believing that men and women are generally different doesn't equate to thinking that people who don't conform to type are weird/strange/should be rounded up and forced to conform... perhaps it's just an observation based on her life

But - stop me if I'm getting too technical - there are no wires in people's heads. Is it genuinely supposed to have some neurological basis? Are brains actually different?

I dont think feminism is about claiming that men and women are the same. Its about valuing both sexes equally and allowing full equality of opportunity.

she can see the wires?

what do you mean that you've found men and women to be "differently wired"?

Yes but mrsravelstein in what ways in your life have you observed that men and women are fundamentally different?

i have found (and i'm not suggesting any scientific basis for this, purely anecdotal after 40 years on the planet) that in general most of the women i've met are interested in fairly traditionally female stuff, and most of the men i've met are interested in traiditonally male stuff.

i worked in investment banking for years so know lots of 'alpha females' who are highly successful etc, but mostly they were also much more interested in high heels and chocolate than most of the male bankers. i don't see that as being a problem, as long as there is no negativity attached to people who don't conform.

They are also physically different, genetically different, physiologically different, hormonally different.

That has nothing to do with feminism, though.

She has got her wires crossed

i'm being trivial with the chocolates and high heels example, obviously

You don't think it's possible that those differences are down to conditioning / socialisation?

I know alpha males who are very interested in shoes, watches, fancy leather goods, and chocolate BTW