The way some men can belittle women's interests in a way that I have never really seen women belittle men's interests. Grrrr.

[Greythorne]

Back story:
We were invited for a tea party at a friend's last weekend. It was an afternoon thing, with 6 kids, 3 couples. Very nice. The woman "hosting" had gone to quite a bit of effort by making a big fancy chocolate cake with a sort of biscuit crown thingy around it. Looked yummy and very attractive.

When she brought it out, we oohed and ahed and I asked how she had made the biscuit crown thingy and a short conversation ensued about recipes and biscuit cutters. A short conversation. Then we moved on to talk about politics, the strike, Greece, education issues, etc etc.

But what got my goat was the way one of the men present started to belittle the women as we (briefly!) discussed the recipe, that is, what traditionally a "women's topic".

He started saying, "Just listen to yourselves!" and "God, let's talk about biscuits!" and " wait a minute, are we actually going to have a conversation about biscuits?"

I thought he was a rude man but beyond basic lack of manners, it struck me that it was deeply sexist to imply that:
We were "little women" talking about silly fripperies
That traditional women's topics are so easily mocked
If we had been talking about cooking something other than baking (even something else culinary, like beef wellington) it would have been legit
And that aboveall, I have never seen women so convincingly belittle men when they talk about traditional "men's topics" like football or whatever.

I don't know where I am going with this, other than to say I see women claiming interest in "men's topics" (like sport and even bloody lapdancing clubs) but never, never do I see men showing interest in "women's topics".

Just one more way equality is so not equal.

The men were rude. I've seen both men and women be rude about the accomplishments of others and imho, it's often down to feeling the need to "occupy" attention in a particular setting, so if someone else or something someone else has done detracts from that, they feel the need to diminish it to re-establish their dominance of the conversation.

Women tend to be socialised to believe their accomplishments are of less significance than those of men and to be modest. As children, they are given dolls to care for and tea sets to make things for others with. Men tend to be socialised to believe their accomplishments are very significant, perhaps the most significant thing about being a man. They are given things to construct, to design and opportunities to compete and achieve. This is generalising because of course not all children are raised along strict traditional gender lines, but this tends to be a "norm" that overlays the way individuals are conditioned.

So, this scenario could well be that a group of men who have always felt entitled to recognition for their achievements feeling the need to belittle the achievements of someone they don't believe is deserving in the same way they are.

Sadly, I've found women sometimes attempt to "counterbalance" this not by challenging men's sense of entitlement, but by making similar digs at men about what they might see as male-specific interests, like cars, sports, DIY or whatever. Perhaps they think that it will make them feel better if they use the same tactics men sometimes do, but diminishing others to make yourself feel better never provides more than a short term "boost."

thunderbolts - I remember from some long ago sociology classes i took that men typically interrupt more, speak more, and listen less. in mixed groups, they will interrupt women more than men, speak over women more than men, and listen to women less than men, respond less to comments made by women less than by men.

In surveys, they then come out & report back that the women dominated the conversation.

Regarding the belittling of others' hobbies - I think it's fine to comment if someone is taking a trivial thing too seriously (aka Rimmer in Red Dwarf giving lectures about games of Risk), but not to do it in a negative, demoralising way.

Having said that, a lot of traditional women's work is seen as a 'hobby', and therefore unimportant, whereas 'men's work' is seen as the big important job.

ie - diy v cooking.

the majority of houses won't fall down due to lack of diy (they may look shabby, but not really suffer) whereas the majority of families will suffer greatly if food is not provided.

both these tasks can be outsourced, but (at least ime) diy is seen as this big, essential skill, cooking as a bit of playing in the kitchen. i suspect that most families would spend more by paying to eat out 100% than they would if they got jobs around the house done by someone else. So, (if I'm right, which, I am, naturally) cooking is more essential, more financial gain for the family, BUT valued less.

of course, them man in the op could be an arse equally to everyone, not just women.

thunder - that is brilliant, do you have a reference for that? I want to push it in my dad's face! I recorded our dinner table conversation with a dictophone when I was 13 to prove to my dad that I did not talk more than him or my brother and he said it proved that I must know I did, and had chosen deliberately to keep quiet that time so I could prove my point!

It drove me bloody mad at the time so I would love to tell him he's officially wrong about the general conversation domination.

I think it's simply that men are brought up to expect women will speak very little so they get hugely impatient as soon as a woman speaks and will assume that three words from her are as time-consuming an imposition as 100 from him.

WTF are 'women's topics'? FWIW I'd have been pretty bored talking about biscuits and a bit pissed off if it was assumed I would want to because I was a woman.

And I have seen many instances of women sneering about men's hobbies TBH.

I think the man was rude. In common with other unpleasant human beings both male and female.

LRD, such a study is mentioned in Sally Cline and Dale Spender's Reflecting Men at Twice Their Natural Size. Although it's over 20 years old, it's still an incisive, fresh and at times hilarious book. In their "test," despite trying very hard, the woman never managed to occupy 50% of the verbal space, but her male companion felt she was talking constantly and being rude and pushy.

Others will probably have references for more up to date and academic sources for similar studies.

Orm
I for one did not assume anyone male or female would want to talk about biscuits for more than a couple of mins. I don't think the biscuit conversation was overly long.

Thank you Kri! Sorry, I am sure as you say there are loads of them and I should find them easily. But thanks for a quick ref.

I do think it depends on your upbringing my dad would never dream of attempting to speak as much as me and my mum. He just sits there are listens as we talk mainly, same as my husband. I think its something you pass on as I have definitely taught it to DD and she is only 3. I think that makes me reflect a little and think about how much the women I know dominate the conversation.

YANBU he was rude and patronising

If a host produced home brewed wine or beer , most guests wouod make polite noises about it, even if theybhad no interets in the hobby

I suspwct, like the op, that the man concerned felt more entitled to be rude because the host, and the hobby, are female therefore less " important"

So i agree that he was sexist

Hmm. Rude people do take the piss out of any conversational topic that they are not, themselves, interested in, which is unecessary, however trivial the conversation the other people are having (It's not a crime to want to talk about peanut butter/sudoku/what colour to paint the kitchen ceiling even though there are millions starving and all that). But there is this idea that anything that is more of interest to women than it is to men must be trivial and pointless and not fit for mixed company conversation. I think the biggest problem is the way in which some men cannot bear the idea that a conversation is not about men, not about them, not relevant to them: some men can't stand the idea of women not thinking about men for any amount of time at all.

LOL at SGB. I am enjoying The Killing 2 ATM because the main character is a clever woman who is totally focussed on her work and doesnt give a stuff what colleagues or superiors ( mostly male) think of her. Yes she has a family and a child but they are not portrayed as her raison d'etre, unlike so mamy female characters. And there is no sense that she will be " punished" in the end because she is not a proper woman ie focussed on men. And she doesnt wear high heels , jewellery
or obvious make up

And she s not even ugly, fat or a lesbian ( because we know thats usually why woemn are not focussed on men)

Sorry about that wee thread hijack

I also hate the way women are pushed into 'girly' hobbies.

I hate fucking baking! (but love cakes of course:))

Yet as soon as you mention cakes, all the men assume you love baking and always bring it up in conversation.

If a man mentions he does the washing up, do we all assume its his favourite hobby and invite him to do it at every opportunity? Do we assume he luurves washing up, rather than having clean dishes?

oh men do this all the time! haven't you noticed!
the only thing to do is to accept that they do this, and ignore them.

what gets me is when women pretend men's topics are interesting. Never understood why some women do that. Men and their topics are as dull as dishwater compared to women's conversations.

ditch-water?

sakura - what are 'men's topics' though? I think it's a bit dangerous to insist that certain areas are no-go for women.

okay. I went camping last month and there was a man in the cabin next to me whose hobby was preserving fish he'd caught and mounting them, painting them. He was very proud of this hobby. Now to me, it looked like a dead fish. I prefer live animals myself. BUt I was polite, as women tend to be. BUt God he went on and on.
I've never seen a woman who liked mounting dead animals: not butterflies, not fish, not anything.
ANd I've never seen a man who would have listened as politely to a woman go on and on about her hobby the way he expected us to.

Well I've (thankfully! ) never met a man who was obsessed with dead animals. And I know a woman who wanted to be a taxidermist. I am not sure you can extrapolate from any single example.

Re politeness, I am not convinced that it is restricted to women. Although if you had been a little more forthright you might have had a better camping trip

well I think I answered my own question. Women listen out of politeness, and because we don't want to offend.
BUt it wasn't just him. WHat about football. SOme men really really believe women can't understand the off-side rule. I can. I just don't find it interesting.

He was being rude to his host. Baking a cake takes quite a lot of thought and effort. If he had never done it, perhaps he does not know that - which also makes him ignorant.

On the issue of baking being a 'girly hobby', well no. I recall there was quite a bit of controversy about there not being a man in the recent final of The Great British Bakeoff. Paul Hollywood was one of expert presenters (along with Mary Berry) though.

Cooking (or the culinary arts if you want) is not a 'female topic'. Many (most?) females have no interest in it at all. It's a topic for people who are interested in it, that's all. The only person I know who is interested in that sort of thing is a bloke.

Agree about football. And X-Box games. Cars, makes and engine-sizes of.

But I also find anything to do with fashion, make-up and shoes mind-numbingly tedious.

In other words anything that doesn't mirror my interests and tastes. I could bore you for hours about maps and Iron Age hillforts. I don't expect anyone to find them of interest but if you expressed an interest I might take it as an invitation to talk about them....

I just don't want things I like bundled up as 'suitable for women' and 'suitable for men' like some grizzly Christmas gift catalogue.

The man in the OP was rude and arrogant. Sexist, maybe, maybe not. But a twat nonetheless.

MoreBeta, do you think there would have been any anguish if there had been no women in the final of GBBO? Genuinely interested, not poking...