Rape in literature (warning may be triggering)

[careyjones]

Hi there, first off I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Carey and I'm 21 and just getting into feminism and found these wonderful boards.

I'm hoping to get some feedback from some of the more seasoned feminists on here, (but any opinion is helpful!)

My friend is writing a book...and in the book he includes a section about rape. The basic premise of the book is set in a futuristic world, where people get 'scored' for how well they play by the systems rules, how attractive they are, how many girls they can get. Its supposed to be a dystopian novel and he writes it very well and its funny and intelligent. In the section that I am talking about, he is introducing a character who 'one day realised he was a rapist'.

Now, he writes in quite a surreal way, and he is clearly not painting this rapist character as a sympathetic character at all. But there is something about it that just doesnt sit right with me. And i'm not sure what it is. I have tried to talk to him about it, but I really am quite new to these topics and can't quite seem to articulate what exactly I find uncomfortable about it.

He is a feminist. His mum and his sister were both raped...so he is not some sort of rape apologist.

He said his motivation for writing the rape scene was because he wanted to delve deeper into the MIND of the rapist, as even if we see them as 'evil' people (they do indeed to evil things) they are still people. He wanted to humanise them. Not excuse what they did but understand. And also to show how messed up the society had become, that things like this could happen.

I think my main problems in the scene were

1. the absence of any female voice. I think its very important to have the voice of the rapist to understand them...but having nothing from the girl...seems oppressive and not constructive. Unless he is deliberately trying to prove this point. In which case he needs to be more obvious.

1. The idea of 'stranger rape' in an alley way....whereas actually women are raped more often than not by friends or people who know them.

But there may be more. I don't know.

I want to be able to give him constructive criticisms on it...because i think it is so so so important to deal with these issues in the best way possible. We live in a society where rape joke are rife and politicians talk ridiculously about 'good rape and bad rape' so if we have the smallest chance to make a difference through literature/art/politics I think we should do our best to take it.

I'd like to post the excerpt (my friend wont mind, he has told me I can show it to as many people as I want to discuss it...he wants to make it good) I will post it in the next post and I would love,love,love to hear peoples opinions on it.

Beware it is quite descriptive of the rape, so if you are upset by thing like this you may not want to read on.

I don't think anyone was aggressive to the OP.

Women giving their opinions frankly, is defined as aggressive because we are not supposed to be frank, we are supposed to be kind and supportive even when something is insupportable.

I also think that deleting your account because you got some negative feedback, is a bit petulant tbh. If the OP wants to know about rape, then MN is a good place to come to because it's one of the few places around where rape is properly discussed and de constructed and rape myths rigorously challenged.

difficulttimes - I find it disturbing that the only explanation you can think of for why several posters should all agree that a piece of writing presenting a rape fantasy is worth condemning, is 'gang mentality'.

You don't think it's normal for people to all agree rape fantasies are disgusting?

I have sympathy for the OP, not because I think she is being ganged up on (rather silly notion) but because like I said earlier, she has just banged into the Overton Window and it probably smarts a bit.

Carey, I think all of us on this thread, indeed probably all feminists have had similar experiences. I know I have (and will continue to have). Feminism has a steep learning curve. Feminist analysis takes us out of our comfort zones and forces us to constantly challenge our entire way of thinking about the world. I found having my feminist consciousness raised a bit like having the world taken apart piece by piece and then finding that it was impossible to put the parts back together again because I could no longer make them fit. So my world was in bits. That made me uncomfortable.

There can be no pussy footing around in feminism, that won't get us anywhere, and it is actually pretty well impossible to do with any integrity.

BTW 'Sexual Politics' which was mentioned earlier, is a brilliant book that I think you would find a great read.

No thats not what I said,

If people are being aggressive than they are no matter what gender and you are, Its shocking and offensive as a woman to see people using 'were empowwering ourselves' curtain to hide behind as regard to bad behaviour.

The extract is umcomfortable at no point did I say people can't state their opinion but alot of the responses were atagonistic? At what point did I say rape fantasies were god, another person proving my point of word twisting.

What I don't approve of is people becoming personally offensive to the OP, that is all.

gender doesn't have anything to do with having strong opinions.

no scratch that - it shouldn't.

Theres strong opinions and then theres insinuating someones a rape apologist,

As a few of the posts have tbh.

Its a word thats thrown around on here, its the same as calling someone a racist, inexcusable without evidence.

Difficulttimes I think you kinda slipped down off the moral high ground with your suggestion that women expressing their frank (and blimmin well solicited) opinions on an internet forum is akin to abusing one's partner.

The mental gymnastics required to come up with that sort of contortion are quite something!

well people have to call it as they see it.
It's a bitter pill but it's worthy of consideration rather than kneejerking denial, the writer is trying to be sensitive about the issue. So he has to take on board when he's missing the mark.

I can well remember the first somebody pointed out that I was spouting rape apology.

I was well pissed off and full of what I thought to be righteous indignation. They were right though and I'm glad I had it pointed out to me. Insidious thing this sexism.

Nobody here has said or insinuated that Carey is a rape apologist.

Her flatmate is, but I'm not really seeing the problem with saying it. Unless you think those sort of things are best left unsaid, difficulttimes.

Well I have had my words twisted already which is the same behaviour, so as disturbing as it might be perhaps focus you're attentions on people who twist everything someone says just becasue they disagree with them,

So its okay for someone to say I think rape fantast literature is Okay?

yeah, I dont think i've lost any moral highground, I've stated a very simple, easy to grasp point, If posters continue to dance around and twist what is black and white it says more about them then me tbh.

This 'twisting' thing seems to come up fairly regularly in these sorts of conversations.

The point is not to twist things but to call a spade a spade. To take off the patriarchy blinkers. To shine a light on what things we blithely come out with actually mean. It can be an uncomfortable process, but the point isn't to do anything other than be clear and analytical about important things.

How were your words twisted?

This is an argument I really find underhand. If it's true - say how. Don't just put it out there, that's just making a personal attack in a sly way.

We're all rational people, we can all sit here and work out what each other is trying to say without resorting to accusations like that.

So: personally, I don't follow what your 'simple, easy to grasp point' is. Can you help me?

Sorry, posted too soon. Eg., this sentence, I don't understand what you're saying:

'So its okay for someone to say I think rape fantast literature is Okay?'

Are you asking if it is acceptable for a person to approve of rape fantasist literature, or are you asking if it's acceptable for someone to say that you, personally, think rape fantasist literature is acceptable?

I've just said how in the above post sigh

'What I don't approve of is people becoming personally offensive to the OP, that is all.'

I also said that a few posts ago, but no-ones actually read and processed what I put and have just regurgitated shit from god knows where.

Look he asked for feedback (by proxy, but still) by people whose opinions he claims to respect. He didn't hit the note he wanted to, for the reasons expressed above. He would do well to reflect, maybe agree or disagree after some thought.

What's the alternative, if beachcomber says y, I must say x in case people think there's a gang mentality? If thunders gets angry, I must swallow mine?

The latter as somone insinuated, but no-one jumped on that ??

seems a bit one sided.

Get angry at the author if you have too not the OP.

difficult, I'm sorry, I've read the whole thread but I just can't understand your posts.

I've not seen personal attacks on the OP, but report them if you have.

If your words have been twisted (and, sorry, I myself just can't understand them), show me how? It may be you're not saying anything we disagree with, we're just misunderstanding?

But you're the one twisting things difficulttimes. You're the one claiming that it's been insinuated that Carey is a rape apologist when nobody has said, implied or, as far as I know, thought any such thing.

I don't think carey is a rape apologist.

I think the piece of writing is rape apology. That's not up for debate is it?

The bloke may not be deliberately doing this and may well not be aware how his piece reads.

So I am aware there is a fair amount of room to make allowances for individuals here.

However, some people do very deliberately write rape apologies. And if and when they post, we should be able to say that. It's not a taboo term no-one is allowed to utter - it's just like calling someone when they've said something racist.

'I find it disturbing that the only explanation you can think of for why several posters should all agree that a piece of writing presenting a rape fantasy is worth condemning, is 'gang mentality'.

You don't think it's normal for people to all agree rape fantasies are disgusting?'

This for one, of course I dont disagree with that.

I read one post saying 'Why do you want to be friends with someone who wants to humanise rapists'? which is hysterical and also in a very thinly vieled way being very bitchy and implying very nasty things.

I saw what seemed like people attacking the OP rather than the lit. and yes its not rare on here.

difficult - what's hysterical about asking someone if they want to be friends with someone who wants to humanize rapists?

I took that as a serious question - the OP has said she loves this guy. She has said he set out to write a story from the rapist's point of view.

What am I missing?

I don't understand why you are so concerned about posters 'implying very nasty things'.

As far as I can see, very little is being 'implied' at all. I'm being as direct as I can be. I was revolted by the piece of writing and found it deeply offensive. I said so. The OP herself said it was uncomfortable.

The 'very nasty thing' here is that rape is very nasty. And so is the idea of humanizing a rapist's thought process.

The OP herself was uncomfortable with it.

What on earth is being 'implied' here that could be nastier than that?