Rape in literature (warning may be triggering)

[careyjones]

Hi there, first off I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Carey and I'm 21 and just getting into feminism and found these wonderful boards.

I'm hoping to get some feedback from some of the more seasoned feminists on here, (but any opinion is helpful!)

My friend is writing a book...and in the book he includes a section about rape. The basic premise of the book is set in a futuristic world, where people get 'scored' for how well they play by the systems rules, how attractive they are, how many girls they can get. Its supposed to be a dystopian novel and he writes it very well and its funny and intelligent. In the section that I am talking about, he is introducing a character who 'one day realised he was a rapist'.

Now, he writes in quite a surreal way, and he is clearly not painting this rapist character as a sympathetic character at all. But there is something about it that just doesnt sit right with me. And i'm not sure what it is. I have tried to talk to him about it, but I really am quite new to these topics and can't quite seem to articulate what exactly I find uncomfortable about it.

He is a feminist. His mum and his sister were both raped...so he is not some sort of rape apologist.

He said his motivation for writing the rape scene was because he wanted to delve deeper into the MIND of the rapist, as even if we see them as 'evil' people (they do indeed to evil things) they are still people. He wanted to humanise them. Not excuse what they did but understand. And also to show how messed up the society had become, that things like this could happen.

I think my main problems in the scene were

1. the absence of any female voice. I think its very important to have the voice of the rapist to understand them...but having nothing from the girl...seems oppressive and not constructive. Unless he is deliberately trying to prove this point. In which case he needs to be more obvious.
   

1. The idea of 'stranger rape' in an alley way....whereas actually women are raped more often than not by friends or people who know them.
   

But there may be more. I don't know.


I want to be able to give him constructive criticisms on it...because i think it is so so so important to deal with these issues in the best way possible. We live in a society where rape joke are rife and politicians talk ridiculously about 'good rape and bad rape' so if we have the smallest chance to make a difference through literature/art/politics I think we should do our best to take it.

I'd like to post the excerpt (my friend wont mind, he has told me I can show it to as many people as I want to discuss it...he wants to make it good) I will post it in the next post and I would love,love,love to hear peoples opinions on it.

Beware it is quite descriptive of the rape, so if you are upset by thing like this you may not want to read on.

[difficulttimes]

'I'm sorry but there is something about this that I find very disturbing. I also think you motives are questionable.'

wtf?? becuase obviously shes some crazed pervert who gets her kicks by posting stuff likev this on a fem board.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Eh? Who said she was a crazed pervert?

I have not seen this post.

You are starting to make things up now.

[JeremyVile]

Difficulttimes - I think you have every right to interpret some comments on here as personal attacks, and of course others have every right to disagree with you.
IF you think posters should have limited their comments to the writing itself and nothing else then you are either not understanding how MN works or you have a particularly stringent expectation of just this section of MN.
Its a discussion site, threads almost always involve discussion that veers from the exact question that was asked. Its how its supposed to be really., and particularly when the thread is about rape/rape myths and the people being specifically asked for their opinions are feminists.
Of course if you see personal attacks you should report and/or tackle the person you feel was abusive.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

There is a system for dealing with any post you feel is a personal attack. You report it. MN will remove them if need be.

[SinicalSal]

I think getting feedback on something you're invested in can be horrible. In fact I know it can be! And also I know op isn't the author. but when you look for opinions you have to decide what you are going to take on board.
It's not a support thread, it's actively inviting criticism - if OP thinks it's not all constructive she will have to disregard those bits and just engage with the bits that have merit, even if she & the writer disagree.
lot of useful things have been said.
But when it comes to insinuations and implications, they're too subjective really to dismiss the whole thing out of hand.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

ok. imho the only way a good dystopia of a world in which men rule and women are seen as sex objects and prizes (which of course would be satirical because it would simply be an exaggeration of our own culture) would be to have it written in the female voice. the rape scene likewise can only be written in the female voice.

anything other than this simply becomes a piece of wank fodder for misogynists.

the idea that you could write this dystopia from a male perspective with a male protagonist makes it a fantasy (and a dubious one) rather than a social critique.

females are dehumanised and objectified enough in reality that doing it in a book and concerning oneself with humanising the rapist is about as revolutionary and subversive as playboy.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

plus it screams of ignorance of the fact that the world he is describing is really not very different at all from our own.

something like a handsmaid tale written in the male voice would've been a wank story.

i do not agree that a man who feels the need to write a book humanising rapists and making out they do it because they want sex or feel rejected by their mates (diddums) is a feminist and i struggle to see how a feminist would support a man in doing that.

this is not meant as a criticism of you OP but i suspect your objectivity is obscured by your fondness and admiration for this man.

also - this man's own sister and mother have been raped and he wants to write humanising rapists and making excuses for their behaviour???? what kind of human being is that? how do you think his mother and sister would feel about that? does it not strike you as bizarre that this is what those experiences have motivated him to write about?

i think you have to question his psychological state.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I think as well, the reason The Handmaid's Tale works is because Atwood is a brilliant writer. She knows how to write a story that is disturbing, and believable, and which makes you ask uncomfortable questions. It takes a lot of skill.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

and utterly retained the humanity of the dehumanised - which was pretty much the point i think? whereas this is attempting to humanise the dehumaniser. i'm suddenly reminded of the lolita thread.

[Beachcomber]

I was reminded of the Lolita thread too earlier.

Lolita would have been such a different book if it had been written from a female perspective. Just as The Handmaid's Tale would have been a rather different kettle of fish written from the male perspective.

There is an interesting discussion to be had here about the limitations of one's ability to explore certain themes with literary mechanisms, with regards to one's membership or not of the 'othered' group.

Which brings me back to entitlement - I think it is massively entitled to think one can write usefully about oppression one has never and will never experience. It feels co-opting. And oppressive. Ironically.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Yes, I agree.

This is why I think I don't want to soften what I'm saying to the OP with any tactful noises about her friend's writing. I might do that if I were reading a draft in another context. But I really don't want to help her help him write this novel, for the reasons we've all covered. I don't want to separate out the lit crit and the politics and the feminism in a nice, helpful way, because that might help him to write this better, and I don't want him to write it at all.

[careyjones]

I havent deleted my account, I do agree it was petulant to say I would.

Thank you very much to everyone who has tried to 'stick up for me' (if thats the right term to use,) and thank you so much to all the people who offered your constructive criticism. Honestly, I didnt mind the judgements on his writing, it was just the insinuations that he himself was a BAD person that got to me...just because someone writes badly about something doesn't make HIM bad. Obviously I am emotionally biased but he happens to be one of the sweetest, caring, most understanding man I have ever met in my life.

He just wrote something really really horrible because of his own IGNORANCE. I understand that based on that you guys will obviously make judgments on his character, but it stung me.

Both him and myself, after talking about it agreed that it was rape apologist, promoting rape myths and rape fantasy. He feels very very uncomfortable about writing it, and as I already said, has decided not to include it.

Maybe he had got some deeply ingrained misogyny in him. i think a lot of men do. I do think that this is something that should be condemned. I really think he is on the way to lose those views though and I am NOT taking it on as a responsibility to change him...(As Kritiq says, I was not 'dong the dirty work' for him, I felt there was something wrong with the passage instinctively though I didnt know much about feminism) he is getting more and more interested in feminist literature and articles, and sending me articles and blog posts that he has read, and we are sharing our growing interest in feminism together.

And most DEFINITELY i do not view him as a 'tragic victim' over the countless number of silenced victims of rape. The use of the word victim was poorly chosen and I'm sorry for that.

Anyway...I really didnt want to start world war 3 on mumsnet so I really think we should just drop it and forget this thread! I decided to write this post because I didnt want my previous snappy post to be the end of my otherwise very informative, very helpful encounters with some of you people. Your opinions, links and personal cristisms really have helped me form ideas about feminism in my own mind, and I am very thankful for that. :)

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

carey, I don't think anyone felt you needed to apologize for petulance.

Look, I don't think anyone is saying that the fact he writes badly in an artistic sense means he's a bad person. So put that to one side for a minute. It's not really your problem anyway (though obviously you're going to mind because he's someone you love).

But the problem is, how ignorant do you have to be to think that writing to 'humanize' rapists is a good idea? Obviously on this count he was much less aware than you that there was a problem, because you did feel uncomfortable. And you should IMO give yourself credit for that feeling. And for talking it over with him.

IMO what we all need to distinguish between are men (and women) who're sexist because sexism is quite deeply ingrained in our society, and men and women who're sexist because sexism is deeply ingrained in them. If he's in the second camp, well, you need to take care because it will hurt you. If he's in teh first camp, you scratch the surface and he will be wondering what the heck he's been doing, and reconsidering, and opening up in all sorts of ways.

It's possible you are right about his deeply ingrained misogyny (we can't know; we don't know him). I'm sure some men are misogynists deep down. But the important thing is: most men aren't. Most men are not misogynists deep down. A very small number are. Those men would like you to believe all men are like them.

[careyjones]

Very excellently put LRD. Thank you for that.

'IMO what we all need to distinguish between are men (and women) who're sexist because sexism is quite deeply ingrained in our society, and men and women who're sexist because sexism is deeply ingrained in them. If he's in the second camp, well, you need to take care because it will hurt you. If he's in teh first camp, you scratch the surface and he will be wondering what the heck he's been doing, and reconsidering, and opening up in all sorts of ways. '

Thats incredibly interesting. I really do believe that he is in the first camp. I wonder what the difference is between those men and women who are sexist because it is ingrained in them as opposed to by society. I mean...what is the cause of that sexism, how did it get to be ingrained in them, if not by society? It cant be natural can it?

There was a guy in our social group at school who DEFINITELY seemed to have sexism ingrained in him. He called women sluts constantly, laughed at the idea that prostitutes could be raped, hated the idea of feminism or womens issues, was always shouting about how girls had a 'better deal and were just being greedy'. I mean, yeah he was an idiot. Ended up having a very long and as we later found out, emotionally abusive relationship with a girl.

I mean, he was a really obvious example because he didnt even remotely try to hide it or be subtle about his misogyny but i wonder what makes someone like that. Power? Because he can?

God I have a lot to read and think about...

[Beachcomber]

Mmm, I'm afraid I'm going to throw a spanner in the works.

I think all men, by the very nature of living in a patriarchy, are misogynistic. I don't see how they can possibly escape from it, no matter how humane and careful they are.

Men are socialised to be misogynistic. As are women.

Inevitably and inescapably we absorb patriarchal messages about women's status and purpose. We cannot help but apply the value system we live in, to our lives. We are steeped in misogyny, it is the very fabric of our lives.

For me it is just a question of degrees - some men and women are more misogynistic than others.

Which is why we talk about consciousness raising in feminism.

All men benefit from male privilege, whether they want to or not. They therefore exercise privilege whether they want to or not. Exercising privilege = oppressive = misogyny.

Which kinda sucks for everybody really.

And this is why oppressive systems such as patriarchy are so enduring - because we are all invested in them in terms of our self-identity, indeed our very being. This in turn is the reason why people hate feminism so much, are so threatened by it - the consequences of which are the extraordinary mental contortions and resulting cognitive dissonance that feminism generates in people.

Well, in my opinion anyway

[thunderboltsandlightning]

"Look, I don't think anyone is saying that the fact he writes badly in an artistic sense means he's a bad person."

No nobody is saying that, but I'm saying because he writes in a misogynistic way that he's a misogynist. That's what Carey has got so upset about. We need to be accurate about what is going on here.

Women do spend a lot of time trying to rehabilitate men like this, and it's pretty much a fools errand. Just because he's not straight out in the open about it doesn't make the misogyny (woman-hatred) any less problematic. If he was really concerned about what he'd written about rape he would have come here himself and taken the responses, instead Carey did the work and not only that got hurt on his behalf and defended him for what he did.

Carey, if a black person found out that their white friend was writing racist material, do you think it would be a good idea for them to spend much time helping them with their writing, or would they be best advised to drop them? Misogyny isn't some kind of a minor flaw - it's the root cause of hideous misery for women right across this world.

It does sound like there's more than a flatmates' relationship going on here, which is possibly why you're so defensive about this but I don't think it's helpful to reassure you that this isn't a problem. It really is. Misogyny is universal and deeply engrained. There are very few men who are actively fighting against it, and the ones who do, do not write rape fantasies/rape promotion. You haven't found one of the good ones.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

beach, I'm saying I think most misogyny comes from being socialised, rather than from being innate.

I don't disagree with you, I just didn't express it very well.

What I am trying to say, carey, is that you're saying he might be a little sexist. Or a little misogynistic. And I'm saying, there is no excuse for that. Yes, our society does socialize men to be sexist. But they're not some kind of passive, feeble victims who can't react. Men are perfectly capable of seeing and reacting to the way society tries to make them into misogynists. And no, I don't believe it is 'natural' or innate at all to hate women (or to hate men for that matter).

I can understand why it is important to recognize how much society encourages men to be casually sexist and automatically misogynistic. But society is never an excuse.

You can see through the fact that what he wrote, was bothering you. Now you've discussed it with him, and hopefully he sees it too. I don't know you or him, so I may get this wrong, but if he were my friend, I would expect him to be feeling pretty awful. So you probably feel quite sympathetic that he's come to this difficult realization. That's understandable. But what you can do now for him is encourage him to see that he doesn't need you to be his Feminist Whisperer for him. He's not incapable of understanding women, and hatred towards women, without you.

I don't mean you won't have productive discussions about this topic with him. I just mean, don't fall into the trap of excusing him by thinking 'oh, of course he is sexist, it's hard for men not to be sexist ... oh, of course I felt uncomfortable before he did, he's a man and it's harder for him to see the misogyny'.

I don't believe that is true really. He should see it just as clearly as you.

Sorry, I hope I am making a bit of sense, I can get this clear in my own head but not on paper! Maybe beach you'll feel I'm wrong again, I don't know.

[Beachcomber]

I don't think you are wrong LRD - I'm just framing things in a radical analysis at societal level.

I guess my starting off point is that universal misogyny is a given; now what are we, as individuals, going to do about it in terms of our 'personal political'.

Men have certain responsibilities and women others. I don't think what you are saying is very different, I just think we may be using 'misogyny' in a slightly different way.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm not sure. My basic point is that no matter how hard anyone tries to explain away the reasons why some men are misogynists, it doesn't excuse misogyny. Sorry if that is harsh.

[thunderboltsandlightning]

The thing is a man who writes rape myth promotion/rape fantasies is a misogynist, deep down or not.

[KRITIQ]

I'll fling a couple more spanners in the works. :)

I believe that all human beings hold prejudices against people who they see as different from them, at least to varying degrees. Like LRD, I believe these prejudices are socialised, not innate. For that reason, I also believe it is possible for people to "unlearn" prejudices, regardless of how they have been "programmed," and this is very important.

I don't believe that people are split into "on the surface" misogynists (or racists, or homophobes, or classist, etc.) and those who have deeply ingrained, perhaps immutable prejudices. I think our prejudices fall somewhere on a continuum and where they "sit" changes over time, depending on a whole plethora of factors. These might include things like age, life experience, family and social support networks, physical and mental health, intimate relationships and wider social, economic and political factors.

I do think the latter three are critical here. It's one thing to have a personal prejudice about a group of people, but if you have the weight of history, political will, economic systems, social institutions, etc. supporting those prejudices, then it can be that much harder to shift. That's because there will be messages all around you saying that your prejudice is right, is normal, is at least to a degree valid.

Misogyny is an example of this, as are the privileges associated with being white, straight, educated, non-disabled, from Christian heritage, etc. It's the whole prejudice + power = institutionalised discrimination business.

So, all people are somewhere on a continuum both in terms of their relative levels of privilege or oppression AND their levels of prejudice towards others. I don't believe either factor is automatically fixed.

For example, a person can have an accident or illness and temporarily or permanently lose some of their non-disabled privilege. Another can be made redundant and temporarily or permanently lose some of their socio-economic privilege. A person can come out as gay and lose some of their heterosexual privilege. You see where I'm going with this, right?

In terms of prejudice, someone like me could be raised within an all white, overtly racist community and culture, but through life experience, learning, interacting with other people, travelling or whatever, shift their prejudice levels down the other end of the continuum. Same goes for other prejudices, and I would definitely include sexism here.

(gonna make a second coffee and blether a bit more during my break!) :)

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I see what you're saying kri.

I just feel that all of this explaining doesn't change the fact that the OP, who is 21 and living with this guy she loves and is prepared to try to help, is putting all her energy into understanding him and trying to understand where his prejudices may come from. And he put his energy into trying to 'humanize' rapists. It just makes me very sad. I get where she's coming from, I just feel why is it always women who try to understand?

I'm sure there's a spectrum of misogynistic attitudes. But either he wrote a misogynistic piece for one reason, or another. No matter how much we discuss it, we won't get away from the fact that what he wrote was awful, and she felt uncomfortable, but now she's trying to discuss it all with him. What about her?

Sorry 8carey* if I'm speculating too much, I'm just thinking what I wish someone had said to me: you have all this energy and interest and so on ... use it for yourself, get interested for yourself. Maybe get into writing yourself?

[thunderboltsandlightning]

Misogyny isn't a prejudice Kritiq, nor in the end is it an attitude LRD. It is behaviour.

Woman hatred is a physical reality that manifests itself in violence against women, rape, exploitation of women's work and reproductive abilities, huge inequalities between men and women and the acceptance of violence against women both as a terroristic threat against us (as in writing rape fantasies/rape promotion) and as an actual political tool.

Misogyny doesn't just happen, I think that's what's being missed here. It's a choice men make. If a man writes rape fantasies/rape promotion he is being oppressive to women and he is, indeed, a misogynist.

The question arises then what's a woman to do about it. Well I'd say what she should do is give any more of her energy, emotions or material input to a a man behaving in a misogynistic manner, and instead use them for herself. So I agree LRD, that maybe Carey should take up writing herself.

[LEttletownofBOFlehem]

If all people are innately misogynistic, does it follow that they are also racist and homophobic at their core, because our society is?

[KRITIQ]

Sorry, got side tracked again! Forgot what I wanted to say next but I kind of want to pick up on what you just said and something I think thunderbolts referred to above. Here are some questions that spring to mind.

• Can a person have prejudiced views and engage in prejudiced behaviour without recognising that is prejudiced and harmful to others? I believe so. I can cite my experience as someone who never really met a non-white person until I was in my late teens, who was frankly ignorant, and I know said and did racist things without realising that was what they were. Could it be that the OP's friend was ignorant of the sexist and rape mythologising nature of what he wrote because of lack of experience, and was primarily regurgitating the sex scene/rape scene formula you see in some literature without realising that his writing was harmful?
  

• Can a person change prejudiced views and behaviour through learning, experience, becoming enlightened? Yes, I believe so. I would say that happened to me with regard to racism. I would never say I am not racist because I can't erase what I thought and did in the past or the messages that are still within me. Even now, I'm not always aware of when I benefit from white privilege and sometimes that awareness only comes by hearing and internalising stories from people who don't benefit from white privilege. I can be proactive in resisting the racist part of me in the choices I make.
  

• Is it wrong for someone who is in a position of relative oppression to put effort into the enlightenment of someone in a position of relative privilege? Well, I don't think anyone should feel obliged to do that. I detest those crap Equalities training workshops where Black people, women, gay people, disabled people, whatever are expected to be guinea pigs, offering up their stories to "educate" others. No one should be made to feel vulnerable like that, let alone responsible in any way for educating others. However, I can certainly say I'm grateful to people who did open my eyes to the spectre of racism and other forms of prejudice, but pulled no punches or used kid gloves, either. In the past couple decades, in different roles, I've spoken to a wide spectrum of folks about violence against women and other examples of gender inequality. I've met everything from stony faces and crossed arms to lightbulb moments. I think it's been worth it for the lightbulb moments if it means those people can become part of the solution instead of staying part of the problem.
  

• But what about those who are prejudiced and don't want to change because they don't want to risk losing their privilege? Yep, who wants to give up the goodies if they don't think there is any benefit? There are plenty of men who revel in their privilege. There are also plenty of women who believe they've carved out an advantageous position by working within structures of patriarchal privilege and they don't want to lose their toe hold either. I'm not saying they can never change either and I've seen scales fall from the eyes of some pretty hardened bigots, but for the most part, these aren't the folks worth spending alot of time trying to convince of anything.
  

(End of coffee break. Time to shelter from the gales I think!)