Artificial Wombs

[irnbruguzzler]

Would we want these?

What would become of women if we had them?

I can't even bear to discuss this topic because the concept is awful.

I know a woman who worked in a sex shop and she said that when she first started there the manager told her that the most popular porn was transvestite porn. She didn't believe it. But after a few weeks she saw that he was right. All the straight men would come in and rent transvestite porn.
Men don't even fancy women . The narcissists just fancy themselves.
But they do need women for a few things, and one of those is reproduction ( the other is slave labour and cheap labour). They despise the fact they need women for this, which is why scientists are obsessed with loosening women's grip on reproduction, and why they have a vested interest in keeping women poor so that gay men like Elton John can pay women to rent out their wombs... They hate the fact women have this. Men would give anything to wrest this away from women. And what would become of women then? When we already live in a world where men kill women all the time (two a week in the UK). WHat would become of women when the one thing men need us for we no longer have left to give, because they have usurped it?

And besides that, birth is beautiful. IT is the ultimate creative act. Men are green with envy that Mother Nature has gifted women with this task.

couldn't have said it better myself!

i dont see bio motherhood as something we need 'freeing from' but a gift to be embraced and cherished.

Speaking as someone who adores her DDs but hates being pregnant, i think it would be bloody fantastic. No more morning sickness, SPD, pre-eclampsia, pregnancy diabetes, placenta praevia, feeling like you've climbed Kilimanjaro rather than a flight of stairs, arms and legs swelling like a balloon until it is too uncomfortable to move, giving birth, tearing, etc, etc, etc *

*NB, I haven't had all of the above, just an exciting grab-bag mix.

I stll believe I have lot left to give other than bearing children - let's face it, women do a hell of a lot more than that and you spend a minority of life pregnant. DH has told me that you couldn't pay him enough to go through pregnancy.

Surely the creative act is when the sperm and egg come together? That's a 50/50 contribution.

Men are green with envy that Mother Nature has gifted women with this task.

Bollocks.

Very Lois Mcmaster Bujold.

I was just going to mention Lois McMaster Bujold lisianthus! The ways it could change society... There's a bit in Shards of Honor where Cordelia mentions that her SIL had two body-births and how proud she is about it (a bit like the natural childbirth vs c-section debate). I've also read an article online which mentioned someone who had read the books and complained about the lack of interesting sf ideas in them (apart from space travel obviously), because he didn't register the uterine replicator as a piece of advanced technology

The idea is tempting to me personally (scared of childbirth).

Like all medical advances it will first benefit people who are unable to have babies otherwise. So it may be used to help out mothers who cannot carry pregnancies to term, or give a boost to premature babies. It could also help single fathers and gay couples to have biologically related children without having (the really difficult) task of finding a surrogate.

If women then want to use to avoid unpleasant pregnancy experiences, or not have to take time of work, or not have to take time away from the rest of their family, good for them! Gives women more choices and no one is obliged to use it if they don't want to.

Heh EllieQ! Nice to come across another fan. Yes, it's interesting to think back about how "female oriented" (not sure that's the right term, really) her books are, in a rather subtle way. I hadn't actually realised it until you pointed it out, but come to think of it, the only society females aren't equal in or have an equivalence in power in yet is Barrayarran society, and that is depicted as backwardness due to the Time of Isolation.

And body births, where not the mother's choice, are presented as almost barbaric.
Apols re thread semi-hijack!

Good point Booboostoo. I wonder whether it might actually help the position of women in society? It would leave breastfeeding as the main thing that has to be done by women rather than men, so might lead to a situation where there is a real choice as to which parent takes leave after the birth, as there wouldn't be the physical recovery from birth issue. So it might reduce the assumptions made re women as employees due to maternity leave.

"They despise the fact they need women for this, which is why scientists are obsessed with loosening women's grip on reproduction, and why they have a vested interest in keeping women poor so that gay men like Elton John can pay women to rent out their wombs..."

Why so much hate sakura? My dh and my gay friends are wonderful, so sorry but you are talking total bollocks.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that "Sakura" must be some sort of comic creation.

"All the straight men would come in and rent transvestite porn". Really? All? I wonder why it seems to only be found in niche sections then, and also doesn't appear iat the top of the most popular searches or purchases on websites? Surely capitalism dictates that if sells the best then that is what we would see everywhere. Or is this in fact just bollocks?

"Men don't even fancy women" Oh dear, this presumably links to your assertion that sex is all about domination for us, not about connecting.

"...scientists are obsessed with loosening women's grip on reproduction" which scientists are these? The ones trying to cure cancer? The ones trying to save us from the ravages of Parkinson's? The ones working on improved space telescopes? The ones researching global warming? I guess they are indulging this obsession in their spare time. And doing it very quietly so no one hears about it. And doing it with minimal funding, but other than that you are right - utterly obsessed, they just can't stop.

"so that gay men like Elton John can pay women..." any real need for undercurrent of homophobia here? I suppose gay men shouldn't have children, children should be restricted to all women communes or something.

"birth is beautiful" well, it is natural and it certainly results in something wonderful. At least you are sounding more positive than your comment the other day about women risking their lives in "excruciating pain" which made it all sound rather horrific.

"men are green with envy that mother nature has gifted women with this task". Again, really? I think we are quite used to the idea of two sexes, only one of which gives birth. I think the vast majority of men are just as comfortable with their role in the process as women are with theirs. I have enormous respect for women that go through it but would I want to - not on your nelly!

I'll look forward to the next of your comedy posts though. They make a fun counterpoint to all the genuinely interesting and thought provoking stuff I see posted on here by other women.

I would actually love an artificial womb. Maybe i will have my own child this way.

We lost our dd aged 23 days because she was born premature at 24 weeks in June due to cervical incompetence and subsequent infection. I am pregnant again and already my cervix is thinning to 2cm (normal is 5cm) and I am only 10 weeks yesterday. I will have a cerclage put in in 8 days, but the doctors warn me their effectiveness is questionable. I will have more chance to carry to term if I lie flat for 5 last months, so my dh will have to do EVERYTHING in the house. He says he will, I hope he will, but we will see as there are additional complications of him being disabled, not being able to drive etc... so bring the artificial wombs on! I went through so much pain conceiving and loosing my dd, I cannot go through this again, so if it does not work out this time, i may give up on the motherhood altogether.

Good luck bemybebe, I hope it all works out well for you. DW and I are still at the struggling to conceive stage, well over a year now. For a natural process that comes so easily to some people it can cause an enormous amount of heartache and pain. Fingers crossed for you.

Good luck bemybebe I hope the prolonged bedrest helps you, I read drinking plenty of water helps too x

good luck to you too Nesbo I know you most likely know all this and this is not a conception thread, but when I was TTC my husband took zinc, and we ate a diet full of oats and grains and that helped (according to alternative therapy advice) diet can play a big part.

If you had an artificial womb, could you use it to replace women who have to undergo hysterectomies very young, to keep their hormones in line with a woman their age with a womb and to enable them to have children if they wanted?

That would be pretty good.

Not replace women OBV! Although I guess that is the problem some people have with it!!!

bemybebe good luck and you too nesbo

thank you for well-wishes guys and sorry to derail the thread OP (it is just so bloody raw, i am talking about it all the bloody time right now)

a product of proper scientific process is never "good" or "bad", their application in rl is the core of the matter...

i agree with lisianthus upthread who wondered if "it might actually help the position of women in society?" i think it actually will

I think it would assist wealthier women possibly, in that they would be able to carry on their careers and childcare could be completely shared so the discrimination would be gone.

BUT in societies where women are not valued, it would render them completely irrelevant. In a society where boys are prized and girls are subject to abortion, abandonment and murder, there would just be hardly any girls.

Also of course there are huge questions about eugenics generally.

So I'd say yes to one that could be implanted in an actual woman to replace her own but no to external ones.

And that comes from someone who always said it would be fab to be able to grow babies in jars

Brave new world isn't it? Babies grown in jars and the women have to be immaculate sexbots - that is their function? I think - I haven't read it for a while.

Sorry for multiple posts, in train of consciousness mode.

"BUT in societies where women are not valued, it would render them completely irrelevant. In a society where boys are prized and girls are subject to abortion, abandonment and murder, there would just be hardly any girls."

v good point SQ, but the question is whether in the poorer societies women have this status purely because they are viewed only as walking wombs... easily damaged in childbirth.

on a slightly different note, fwiw, The Economist has an extensive report on Women and Jobs in the current issue. have not had the chance to read it yet myself though

like any scientific progress, at first it would be unreliable and risky and therefore only really an option for women who have no other option.

then, there would be a stage where it was a little bit risky but also the best choice for some women and there'd be great debate (like planned CS is now)

i can't imagine it becoming the 'norm' as it will always be more expensive.

I guess we are looking at this as a thought experiment thingy rather than in practice - I agree that if they ever invented one it would be hugely expensive and I think that there would be public revulsion about it, might even be banned.

Interesting to think what it would do to society if it were widely available though.

I think that in countries where women have low status, they are only tolerated because they are the only way to get babies.

What's with all the hate, Sakura? Is this really what you think ALL men are like?

Carrying on the literary theme, Peter Hamilton has the concept of exowombs in his Nights Dawn trilogy (sci-fi set in 2600s). Women use them so that they can have big families without disrupting their careers and children born via exowombs are gestated to fifteen months (I think) as this makes them a lot more better able to adapt to life outside the womb. The society they live in is very egalitarian, too, as scientific advances like these have levelled out the playing field. Then everyone gets possessed by the souls of the dead and it all turns to shit, but up to that point it's really nice.

And as for 'Do we want these?', I personally loved the fact that I carried my three children myself (morning sickness and piles notwithstanding) but my mate who has PCOS and has just had her second IVF miscarriage would probably kill for one.