Honeymoon Fresh

[pinkee]

Ok so the GP Doctor on Daybreak has just waded into the C-section debate saying that women in Hollywood, LA have C-sections to stay "honeymoon fresh" and protect their pelvic floor muscles, calling such a reason "frivolous" and going on about the extra medical staff who would need to be around.

Daybreak have the "too posh to push" headline which Christine Bleakley has been saying all through their news coverage.

Makes me very angry - I mean how offensive is it use this language about women in this manner, the assumption that a women felt a c-section was needed to protect her pelvic floor that this a frivolous reason incenses me, surely it could be a medical reason. Arghhhhh!

That's it really I just wanted to vent.

If men had to undergo a procedure which had a high probability of rendering them incontinent or damaging their sex lives, no one would even question why they should try and reduce the possibility of incontinence and other internal damage. (Having said that ceasarean sections aren't a panacea, but that's another discussion - the fact that women want them in the society we live in, with the NHS we've got which treats us as sometimes appallingly during labour, is kind of inevitable.) Society is outraged when women want to try and make their lives easier isn't it, because what uppity bitches we are, thinking our lives matter.

There's just so much wrong with 'honeymoon fresh', isn't there? I love how he's made this into some kind of silly, virginal vanity for keeping your husband attentive.

And yes, god forbid women should want satisfying sex for themselves. What a prick.

I wish I had been given a CS with my dc3.

I had natural births with all 3 of my children. So why would I want a CS with dc3 after the other two?

Because of the dreadful pain?
the lack of dignity?
did I feel it was beneath me (too posh to push)?
because of the incontinence?
because I wanted it to be over quickly?
because I could remember the lack of a sex life for a long while after dc2 was born?

No. None of these things. Dc3 has SN, and some of his physical problems may have been caused by his traumatic breech birth, at the insistence of the supposedly knowledgeable and well qualified male obstetrician, who failed to show any sympathy whatsoever. Not a day goes by that I don't think about what might have been. Yes, he would probably still have had SN, but perhaps his physical problems would not have been so bad.

I have never met a real woman who felt she was "too posh to push", I think the concept was invented by the media. And how contemptuous is that towards women, as an expression.

A lot of women don't know until afterwards about the incontinence/ effect on sex life/ the way they treat you like a sack of potatoes. They may have heard a few things, but they think it is rare, not something to bear in mind.

My C-Section was an emergency and nothing to do with being too posh to push or wanting to stay honeymoon tight. What a load of old cobblers. And if it had been a choice, rather than a compulsion, would that have made it wrong? Surely as women we should be able to choose how we give birth, if a choice is available? And if we're informed about such choices, how can they then be taken away, either in actuality or in theory, because they're elitist? Or deemed to be for a cosmetic, rather than health related reason.

I resent even more than this, though, the people (women every time) who've implied that I've let the side down because I haven't had a 'real' birth! There really is no such thing as sisterhood over issues like this.

flapper - you really can't win. I've had people telling me I've let my son down by not having a CS (not that I had any choice in the matter), that his problems are my fault. I am sure if I had had a CS, the same people would be saying I should have had a natural birth.

I agree with you re choice. If the choice is there, why whouldn't we take it? It's not like people enter into it lightly, and I find it highly patronising to suggest that women have CS for frivolous reasons, as though we are incapable of reasonable thought and consideration.

It's not for anyone other than the woman herself to decide whether reasons are "frivolous" or otherwise.

I personally agree with the OP that being concerned about post-natal sex and possible incontinence are not exactly minor cosmetic points.

I also think the debate in this country is ridiculous as most people give birth on the NHS and you only get a section if you need one. They don't dish them out willy-nilly. So all these people banging on about stupid vain women being "too posh to push" - who exactly are they talking about.

I really believe that women should be able to choose the method by which they give birth. And now NICE agree I think. So to wankers like the doctor mentioned in the OP.

the only thing that irratates me is (generally young women ime)
see's a c-section as an easier alternative to a natural birth ,
it bloody isn't takes you much longer to recover, and the trapped wind is agony, and not being able to sit up easily when your baby cries for you.

obviously this is out of naievity, what im trying to say is the idea that a natural birth must mean you're blowing in the wind needs to change.

At the risk of being controversial if someone said tom me I want a c-section because I just don't want a natural birth I would be a bit judgey, emergency C-sections are just that

difficulttimes the whole difficulty with giving birth is that no-one can tell in advance which method will be best for any one mother and baby. Both ways of giving birth have their positives and negatives for both mother and baby. It is not the case that VB is always preferable to CS (by a very long chalk). Things like severe tears and incontenence happen, they are not uncommon. They are rarely discussed at ante-natal classes while the risks of CS are outlined. Some women suffer PTSD after giving birth vaginally. So I don't think it is right to say women who want a CS are "naive". They maybe have different fears than other women, know people who have had difficult birth experiences, or have had a difficult or traumatic vaginal delivery and do not want to do it again, or have even had a child damaged during birth which would not have happened with a CS.

It is a very complicated and personal matter and to "judge" people who want a CS is not on IMO. Women giving birth are adults and should be treated as such and given choice in these matters.

Pregnancy and childbirth for humans IS risky, no matter the form of delivery used. Yes, there are risks of CS you don't get with VD, and other way round. And, of course much of the time, CS is performed because the risks to woman and/or baby are too great for a VD.

What I detest is the attempt to vilify women for their choices related to pregnancy and childbirth. It's like deliberately setting up some sort of competition between the earth mothers and the posh and pretty, when there can be a whole plethora of reasons why women choose one method of delivery over the other (if in fact they get to choose when it comes down to it.) Imho, it's still messages trying to portray women as selfish, whatever they do and the messages are underpinned by institutionalised sexism and the belief that women really shouldn't have choices, full stop!

YY Kritiq

I have had two sections BTW, that makes me very posh and very pretty.

I've always assumed that celebrities have them because they can have a tummy tuck at the same time, not every one of them can have a spring back to shape abdomen - every woman I know to have a cs has a bit of a lumpy mess for a stomach . My eldest sister almost died after her cs too.

I can't think of any logical reason why a woman would choose major abdominal surgery over natural birth .

I'd like to see the stats for permanent damage ( for mums and babies) for natural birth vs cs to see which is safer .

I've had three which makes me very posh. I wish these people would focus on how awful maternity services are rather than blaming women and calling them vain.

My god, the phrase "honeymoon fresh" is just hideous in its misogyny. UGH.

And I think cs is safer for babies and a natural delivery safer for mothers

The slebs are having it done for their jobs, aren't they. They are paid to look a certain way, basically.

If they are having it done - how many actually say how they gave birth?

Mal when you say safer are you talking dying or otherwise - and what do you mean by "permanent damage"? Any scar tissue for eg is technically permanent damage.

What about the reasons I gave just ^ there for a cs? "Things like severe tears and incontenence happen, they are not uncommon. They are rarely discussed at ante-natal classes while the risks of CS are outlined. Some women suffer PTSD after giving birth vaginally. So I don't think it is right to say women who want a CS are "naive". They maybe have different fears than other women, know people who have had difficult birth experiences, or have had a difficult or traumatic vaginal delivery and do not want to do it again, or have even had a child damaged during birth which would not have happened with a CS."

Also, why do people feel they have the right to tell other people how to give birth? Just as a general point.

YY to concentrate on improving current maternity standards rather than bitching about people choosing CS - which you can't do on the NHS anyway (without a compelling reason).

The point for me is that looking at any one pregnant women, with a "normal" pregnancy, there is no way of telling whether a CS or a VB will be better for her and her child.

So if there is no way of telling, and a VB for that woman may be a disaster, why not let her choose.

Oh this is timely

women can choose in england and wales

So the NICE guidelines have been changed.

HOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ps sorry for multiple posts

prolesworth yy to 'honeymoon fresh'

I think women should be given the choice if there are serious psycological reasons why they want a C-Section. A friend of mine in my ante natal class had such a horrific first vaginal delivery, that she decided not to have any more children. She tore so badly she needed several operations to sort her out. Dreadful infections etc. Truly believed she would die etc. Poor thing. She got preggers again after a contraception failure. She was so scared of another vaginal delivery that she was considering a termination if they wouldn;t say she could have a C-Section next time. Thankfully, although there was no acual medical 'need' for a C-section, they agreed very early on that she would be given one.

The thing with 'honeymoon fresh' (boak) is there's no mention of the cystitis brought on by unfamiliar, enthusiastic and frankly, excessive shagging. Infected urine? Honeymoon fresh?

Man that's an awful term.

It is quite odd that child birth is something women are just expected to "endure" in a calm, earth mother fashion, without drugs or assistance. I believe it's still the most common cause of death for women in the world.

SIL2 had CSs for all her children and SIL1's catsbum mouth in relation to this was so severe it nearly swallowed her whole (she was a MAJOR NCT fan)

Just to clarify, I said thinking a CS will always be easier than a VB is naiive because it is , every birth is different. recovery rate etc.

not having a CS , FWIW I had severe 4th degree tearing and severe haemorraghing with ds had to have a catheter and 3 drips left in me as they could afford to let me loose more blood, and I would consider a cs if this came through I think its good.

But what I meant was the 'I dont want a baggy fanny' brigade are need of education before choice.

Celebrities do not get a tummy tuck at the same time as a CS! I tried that and was willing to pay for a number of reasons. It is simply impossible. The uterus and for that matter the rest of the abdomen is too distended immediately post birth too be pulled tight enough. No one would touch me for an abdominoplasty for 6 months and I asked a number of private clinics. There just isn't a way to do that. Just more media bitching at celebs who have CS.